Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee - Thursday 15 January 2026, 6:00pm - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting

Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee
Thursday, 15th January 2026 at 6:00pm 

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  1. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  2. Mr Jake Hamilton
  3. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
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  1. Mr Alan Mitchell
  2. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  3. Cllr Alan Martin
  4. Jonathan Smith
  5. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  6. Cllr Alan Martin
  7. Jonathan Smith
  8. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  9. Cllr Paul Thomas
  10. Jonathan Smith
  11. Mr Alan Mitchell
  12. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  13. Cllr Paul Thomas
  14. Jonathan Smith
  15. Cllr Paul Thomas
  16. Mr Alan Mitchell
  17. Cllr Paul Thomas
  18. Jonathan Smith
  19. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  20. Cllr Alan Martin
  21. Mr Alan Mitchell
  22. Cllr Alan Martin
  23. Mr Alan Mitchell
  24. Cllr Alan Martin
  25. Mr Alan Mitchell
  26. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  27. Cllr Paul Thomas
  28. Jonathan Smith
  29. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  30. Cllr John Wing
  31. Jonathan Smith
  32. Cllr John Wing
  33. Jonathan Smith
  34. Cllr John Wing
  35. Jonathan Smith
  36. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  37. Cllr Alan Martin
  38. Mr Alan Mitchell
  39. Cllr Alan Martin
  40. Mr Alan Mitchell
  41. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  42. Cllr Alan Martin
  43. Mr Alan Mitchell
  44. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  45. Cllr Paul Thomas
  46. Mr Alan Mitchell
  47. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  48. Cllr Paul Thomas
  49. Mr Alan Mitchell
  50. Cllr Paul Thomas
  51. Jonathan Smith
  52. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  53. Webcast Finished

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:00:10
Good evening, and welcome to the meeting of the Finance and Performance Scrutiny Subcommittee.
This meeting will be webcast live to the Internet.
For those who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you will need to leave the Chamber.
For members, officers, and others speaking at the meeting, it is important that the microphones
are used so viewers on the webcast and others in the room may hear you. Would anyone with
a mobile phone please switch it to silent mode as they can be distracting. I'd like
to remind members that although we all have strong opinions of matters under consideration,
it is important to treat members, officers and public speakers with respect.
Okay, so for our first item, apologies for absence. Are there any apologies?
Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:00:55
Thank you, Chair. We have one apology from Councillor Holgate.
Thank you.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:00:59
Next item, declarations of interest.

1 Apologies for absence

2 Declarations of interest

Are there members with any declarations of interest?
We'll move on to our third item, our last one.

3 Budget 2026/27 - Growth & Savings

Budget 2026 -27, growth and savings.
Jonathan Smith, Chief Officer for Financial Services, will introduce this item.
Or Alan Mitchell, the Director of Finance.
Yeah, you have the pleasure of me this evening.
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:01:24
Thank you, Chair.
Firstly, I'd like to actually thank both members and officers for making themselves
available for this additional meeting.
I believe it's very important that members of Finance and Performance have this opportunity.
So the report presented in this evening sets out the key components of the 26 -27 budget
proposals and they're summarised as follows.
So Appendix A is the General Fund Growth and Savings.
Appendix B is the General Fund Capital Programme.
and its new bid for 26 -27 and the associated funding.
Appendix C is the HRA revenue and capital growth items or bids.
Now, earlier in the process, members received the budget strategy which outlined the overall programme
and established the parameters for potential growth, savings and income generation.
This report provides further detail on the resulting movements in the budget requirement
and set those out in the appendices that I've just mentioned.
The report has been developed through a robust process. Finance work closely with budget managers
to understand and challenge their service requirement, although services remain responsible
for articulating their operational needs. The report focuses on service -driven changes and
does not incorporate below -the -line adjustments such as business rates and council tax. These
These elements will be included in the final budget report, which both Cabinet and Council
will see in February.
So the General Fund summary are the key movements.
So the net growth of $2 .4 million within the General Fund Appendix A is primarily driven
by the following.
So $1 .4 million temporary accommodation subsidy gap, and this is the net position of both
income and expenditure adjustments.
budget realignments of 254 ,000,
changes in external funding of 266,
and contractual non -controllable inflation adjustments
of half a million.
In addition, there is income from fees and charges,
and that's 342 ,000 to the good.
The General Fund Capital Programme is set out in Appendix B
and the capital bids total 10 .4 million.
The majority of these relate to three main programmes, the Ledger Strategy, High Swimming
Pool and the Grounds Maintenance Equipment Replacement Programme.
In regard to HRA revenue and capital, HRA revenue and capital growth savings are, as
I've mentioned earlier, detailed in Appendix C.
Revenue growth bids total $202 ,000, largely driven by budget realignment and contract
inflation and the capital changes reflect a net reduction of 4 .6 million, primarily
due to the realignment of new budget or new build programme, although there are some growth
items included such as the heat network efficiency scheme and additional budget for the conversion
of Everest calls.
Finally, it's important to note that should there be any revisions to the budget proposals,
then these will have a direct impact on the overall budget.
Thank you, Chair, Jonathan, I'm happy to answer any questions.
Thank you very much for that.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:04:31
And let's open it up to you, councillors.
Any questions in relation to this budget?
Councillor Martin.
Thank you, Chair.
Just initially, I just wondered if you could help me understand
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:04:45
quite where we are in the process.
I don't know whether I lost it in the report,
but I think what I read is that you've spoken to all the department heads
and whatever and come up with this as a plan,
but does it yet have the buy -in of cabinet?
Where are we in the process for coming forward
with these recommendations?
Thank you, Councillor, thank you, Chair.
Jonathan Smith - 0:05:15
So in terms of the process, obviously,
we start the process off in the summertime.
At that stage, we go to obviously all of the services
around the council request where they need,
where there's a specific need for growth,
or any savings that can be identified,
whether it be sort of even things like contract inflation
and any sort of specific growth
that they're aware of in the areas.
That is all collated with the finance,
and that's done over the course of summer,
and then it's taken off to the corporate leadership team
who will review effectively the number of items
that have been taken forward.
and some things will obviously be naturally,
even at that stage within sort of the corporate leadership
team, they'll be rejected and all savings,
growth savings, say discounted at that stage.
Then the necessary ones which are deemed to be,
which are deemed to be sort of valid items to go forward
and then brought forward and through the budget process
and form part of the growth and savings items
that you see before you now.
Now these are obviously in the process of setting the budget and the portfolio holders
are kept informed as well of the items within their area.
So for example, as a good example, say parking bloated through portfolio holder for parking
for any fees and charges, you know, increases that are made.
And obviously the fees and charges and the budget strategies have obviously been through
cabinet as well, which sort of set out the overall strategy.
The fees and charges were approved by Cabinet in December,
and the budget strategy was actually approved
by Cabinet in October of last year.
Thank you.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:07:02
Go ahead, do you have another question?
Yeah, I did.
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:07:06
And then just, so then playing forward,
so if you can then explain precisely
what the next steps are till we see the budget,
that be helpful.
Jonathan Smith - 0:07:20
Thank you, sir. So basically, at this stage, this is a summary of the growth and savings
items as we see them now. There'll be another further finance performance scrutiny subcommittee
meeting which is on the 3rd of February. That will present to this committee the draught papers
for the budget which will then go forward to Cabinet for the 10th of February. And Cabinet
will then recommend the budget to go forward to full council on the 25th of February which
is the final sort of sign off of the budget.
So basically there's a series of three meetings
within February, this committee first,
cabinet and full council to set the budget formally.
Councillor Thompson.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:07:57
So on that, that also takes on board
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:08:02
as part of that process, the feedback that we've had
through the budget consultation with the residents as well.
So we'll see elements of that included in the next steps then.
Is that correct?
Thank you, Councillor Thomas.
Jonathan Smith - 0:08:21
Yes, so the budget consultation is actually live at the moment
and obviously we're receiving feedback at present.
Those are summarised and brought forward as part of the PAC.
So we will summarise the response that we received.
It's open until, I think, the 30th of January.
Yes, at the end of this month.
and that will be summarised as an appendix
to the papers that have taken forward,
certainly to cabinet, those we've produced.
Whatever we do have available,
because obviously the publication deadlines
for the committee, it's very tight, yes.
We'll summarise whatever we do have
and put those into the papers,
but of course, cabinet will see the end of the process
and we'll have all of the responses in
for the consultation that we summarise there.
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:09:07
Thank you. So, also, if I may add, so we've taken a number of budget items to informal
cabinet as well. So, we've got three meetings with informal cabinet where we've been taking
them through the overall budget position as well as growth and savings that are coming
forward. But also, I think a point to note here is that these are out as they are at
the moment. So, if they may be subject to change. A good example, for example, is the
capital programmes, so you've got the high pool and you've got the leisure centre strategy,
those are indicative figures. So further reports will come forward during the 2016 -2017 financial
year and those figures will be formalised as it were. But those are in there so that
we know they are going to be included in this year's budget, those are indicative figures
and it's therefore in principle to make decisions.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:09:55
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:10:00
I did have just a couple of questions on Appendix 1, because again, I'm sure some of this is
just tidying up.
So Item 6, which is the vacant contract compliance officer position, that was created as part
of the state taking stock restructure
and then deemed to be no longer required.
So we made financial provision for that position
but never actually appointed anybody to it.
So, I mean, that's just tidying up, I presume, is it?
Thank you, Councillor Thomas.
Yes, I mean, where there are items like this,
Jonathan Smith - 0:10:36
it'll be a case of, yeah,
it, I don't want to use the word housekeeping,
but it is a case of dealing with any sort of movement
within the budget because the issue is that when an item is added to the budget, it's
added to a base budget. And the way that we do budgeting, obviously, will effectively
will roll over existing budgets and growth and savings and adjust that. So where a post
or where something needs to be adjusted, it will create effectively a saving or a growth
item.
And, sorry.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:11:09
I was just going to add to that. So one, that's part of the process is I think the budget
process here is particularly robust.
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:11:13
One thing that finance will do is go through
and actually challenge and actually say,
well, do you still need this budget?
Can we utilise that for something else?
What we generally don't like to do is leave budgets in there
that aren't being utilised for the purposes
which they originally set.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:11:32
Just on items 28, 29 and 30 to do with end of council tax
grant funding, those three line items,
they're pretty significant because, you know, that's 450 of, well, nearly 500 ,000 pounds
between the three of them.
So is that part of a phased reduction and is there more to come or is that it?
That's the end of the grant funding in those areas.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Thomas.
Jonathan Smith - 0:12:01
Yes, that's the end of the funding stream for this.
Was part of the counter -tax reduction scheme and some grant funding provided by Kent County
Council.
that scheme has ended, so this is removing it
from the base budget entirely, so.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:12:18
Yes, Councillor Martin.
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:12:23
So I had two further questions.
The other one, we discussed on a number of these meetings,
we've discussed the impact of LGR
and the extent to which at this point in time
it should or shouldn't impact our thinking
and the general suggestion is it shouldn't in any way
impact our thinking and that we continue to manage the council day to day.
But it raised a couple of thoughts in my mind, not least we had that session a couple of
days ago.
And what really rung in my ears then was the quite clear statement that when the councils
are set up, assets and debt and everything are basically carved out in a fairly binary
way.
and we would probably have little control over that.
And obviously we're looking here at sort of capital items
where we're, you know, we've got the leisure strategy,
we've got the high pool, so these are projects
that will go on longer than the council,
or will potentially sort of reach out into the distance.
And it just brings back to my mind this point
around whether we should, so every decision we make
is gonna be scrutinised, we've gotta be prudent,
we've gotta be mainly focused on day -to -day decisions.
But I just raise again whether we, so are we in any way,
looking at how the councils around us behave
in terms of funding long -term projects.
When we're thinking about cutting costs,
which will always change the structure of how we operate,
which impacts our residents,
and when we're thinking about longer term projects,
that is also laying out our plans
for what we want to fulfil to the residents in the future.
I'll just be keen, in the first instance,
to understand the extent to which we are thinking forward
into the new world, and I guess if we're not,
why we aren't and whether we should be at this point in time.
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:14:44
So, no, we are actually very considerate of LGR and the ongoing challenges that that face.
I think, you know, primarily we've set up initially the LGR reserves,
So there's money funding there for enabling works as we go through that process.
But I think for this moment in time, we are still very much at the early stage of the
LGR and therefore it's important that we still look at the council priorities, look at our
corporate plan, look at our overall objectives within the district and how we can best utilise
our resources, capital and revenue in order to deliver those capital or corporate plans.
So we are still very considering, you know, considering them.
However, as this budget or these particular growth items are setting out, this is how
we are envisioning for the next few years at least the business at all, the programmes
that we need to deliver.
But ongoing, as we do go through 26 and then more clarity comes out, then that hunch
and we'll start to more form an opinion, particularly once we know who we're then
aligning with.
and then it's, you know, there's discussion at the start,
okay, what are you doing?
Do we necessarily, it'd be a discussion around buildings,
that will then start to kind of widen
and definitely have more of an impact.
Can I, so I'm gonna take it into some line items in a second
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:16:11
but just sticking to that high level,
do we have a sense for how we sit
versus the councils around us in terms of capital programmes,
debt levels, and the approach to managing that longer term.
I guess the point that's on my mind is if,
so we've operated in a certain way and continue to do so.
At some point in the relative near future,
we will be amalgamated with others
who may have had different approaches.
And I guess thinking forward into that,
Are we being very prudent about some things
that will just get washed over
when we get combined with someone else?
Are we being too cautious?
Are we a bit more bullish than other councils?
But on the basis that ultimately
we'll get thrown into one big pot
and everything will be levelized.
But at this point in time,
this council should be focusing on
doing the best thing for our residents
and to see that longer term through
into the new environment.
I just wonder whether that's like a lens
we should look at in some way.
And maybe there are some areas where we would say,
well look on reflection, everything we do in this area
is gonna get dissolved and taken over,
so maybe we might invest a little bit less in another area.
We might want to be a bit bolder,
because we wanna set a bit of a legacy, if you like,
that gets carried through into the new world.
So, just interested in your...
It's more than a finance topic, maybe.
But...
I was going to say, that's quite a wide question.
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:17:51
No, to be fair, I think as an authority, actually, we've taken a really good approach,
very appropriate handling of both our capital programme, our revenue, our reserves.
The actual approach we've taken is actually very appropriate.
In terms of what others are doing around us, as part of the LGR work, we were looking
at, there was a lot of submission, a lot of work, collaborative work between different
authorities, understanding debt levels, capital programmes, and reserve levels.
But that will be part of the work that goes forward in terms of understanding different
approaches.
Obviously, when the new administration is in place and also the officers, then they
will start to carve out their own policies, agendas, and that will dictate how things
go forward.
But at this moment in time, the approach that we're taking is hunching the right approach,
and it is very much a case -by -case basis looking at our resources,
looking at both the capacity of officers and also the appetite of members
in terms of what they want to achieve,
and then understanding how we can best achieve that,
both in the short and longer term.
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:19:03
Sorry, do we have a sense for how the councils around us are,
to what extent they're different in some of these kind of like major areas,
or are we all well aligned and approaching things in similar ways?
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:19:20
There's a lot of variety to be quite honest in terms of both debt levels, capital programme.
Obviously every area, if I compare myself to Ashford,
the terms and level of reserves they've got or debt they've got is quite different to us.
But then when you're pulling multiple, actually, it starts to swing the other way
when you look at some of the other different elements.
So the reality is each area is trying to deliver their own priorities,
you know, their own capital programmes,
and they're proceeding according to that requirement.
It will definitely be one of the challenges going forward
in terms of aligning that and trying to understand
how those programmes will go forward.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:20:01
Thank you very much. Councillor Thomas.
Yeah, thank you very much.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:20:07
Just coming back to what is items 84 to 92, actually, which are all assigned
in terms of the reason, temporary accommodation subsidy gap.
Now, I know in previous meetings we've talked about the pressures on the provision
for temporary accommodation, the rises that we saw in terms of the number of homeless
people, homeless cases we're dealing with. So when you have a look in there, there's
some pretty significant growth and savings aspects.
So what I couldn't see from there really was why that subsidy gap exists.
Is there a simple answer to that, or is it tied in with lots of different governments
or lack of government funding?
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Thomas.
Jonathan Smith - 0:21:00
So in terms of these items specifically, in terms of the growth and savings items
you see here.
So first of all, I'll just say,
when we set the budget,
certainly within our revenue and benefits area,
from which this sort of emanates,
we have to estimate based on the number of claims
we might get in terms of housing benefit and claims.
So in terms of our estimates,
I mean the budget, I think off the top of my head,
please don't quote me on this,
is roughly about 13, 14 million.
And so these are the movements that we're seeing,
but obviously there's a movement with both
because you'll have claims that are being made
and we're paying out sort of benefit payments to claimants,
but also we get a rebate from central government,
certainly for where there's temporary accommodation.
So these items move roughly in sync.
They don't move in sync, though,
which is why there's this thing called the subsidy gap.
So what happens is that we will pay out, you know,
payouts for those for temporary accommodation,
for example, for people who are claiming this.
But the rebate that we can get in from central government,
where we're using private accommodation
is not a full recompense.
It doesn't fully cover the costs that we're paying out.
That creates the subsidy gap.
Where the council uses its own resources,
for example, if it uses its own stock,
it is able to claim 100 % of the cost
that's paid out from government,
but not where it's using private accommodation.
And that's where the subsidy gap, in a nutshell,
is effectively the difference between
what the government gives us back
and what we're having to pay out
based on the demand and the claims that are made.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:22:40
Councillor WYNDHAM.
Thank you, Chair. It's more for clarification.
Cllr John Wing - 0:22:44
I had a few questions that have already been answered,
so I won't bother going back over them again.
Item number four about high pool utilities.
It's got £25 ,000 savings because of not being used as much as gas and water.
How does that fit in with the £6 million refurbishment?
I mean, I presume it's different budgeting, is that correct?
Thank you, Councillor Wing.
So, thankfully, I mean, this is the sort of the ongoing
Jonathan Smith - 0:23:10
sort of revenue costs for maintenance,
so obviously heating the water,
providing heating and electricity costs,
that would be gas and electricity.
Now, obviously, in the past, certainly a few years ago,
we saw energy costs rising quite rapidly,
and everyone will be aware of how high energy costs went.
We adjusted our budgets at that time,
but obviously over the last few years,
energy costs have tended to stabilise
and we've obviously had a budget
which was sitting probably higher than it needed to be.
So part of this item is basically realigning it
to the actual cost that we're seeing now,
certainly now that the energy markets
and the costs associated have stabilised.
Totally separate to obviously the capital item,
which is for the refurbishment,
which will, that's a capital work,
but this is the revenue side,
so this is the ongoing running cost effectively,
but the other item, multi -million pound refurbishment cost
is obviously for the renovation of the pool,
which is obviously an item that will come forward.
Moving on down from there, I noticed that,
what was it, 22, 23, the solace membership,
Cllr John Wing - 0:24:18
I know it's only little now, and you got it twice,
I mean, there's two members being two lots,
instead of putting two, you just sort of numbered them separately.
Yeah, 22, 23.
Thank you, Chancellor Wing.
Yes, so effectively these are for our leadership,
so it's part of the leadership team.
So the way that our budgets work is that the individual directors
will have their own cost centres,
and so it's just making sure that each cost centre
has the relevant amendment to it.
Jonathan Smith - 0:24:52
Okay, one final clarification. I've noticed in there
Cllr John Wing - 0:24:56
about the beach huts, there's money because of coastal
drive. Obviously unfortunately we've just lost a load of beach huts.
I mean, are they insured or what happens then? Because obviously we won't get any rent or
two of them don't exist anymore
and the other can't be used. So how do you adjust for the amount,
the loss of revenue because obviously people won't be paying to rent any more?
How does that work?
Yep, thank you Counselling.
So in terms of the beach huts,
Jonathan Smith - 0:25:23
we do have insurance policies in place
and that's being dealt with by our insurance officer
at the moment in terms of claims that we will need to make.
But there is insurance that we do have for events
and obviously, but the claims obviously,
we can put in the claim,
but obviously it's up to the insurers.
But yes, we do have insurance in place
and that's with our insurance officer.
Obviously it's quite a recent item.
I'm not sure the stage of the process we're at on that,
but I am aware that it's something that is being
actively looked at at the moment.
Councillor Martin.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:25:59
Lovely, thank you.
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:26:03
So I had a question which I think it might be
just how things are laid out in the report,
but so the leisure strategy and then the hive pool,
when I was reading the comments on the side of,
Where am I? I was on page 13, appendix B.
I think I misread it.
I thought it was saying under the leisure strategy
that options were being considered to explore the refurbished pool,
but I assume that actually should relate to the line below
relating to a high pool.
So my question was going to be
if we're reviewing our leisure strategy,
which presumably includes both new and old,
but putting forward a view of what we should be putting in place.
Why have we separated high pool refurbishment from the strategy?
So yeah, well maybe if you can answer that question first,
just to clarify what the real state of affairs is.
Yes, so they are actually on separate lines.
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:27:13
I think in terms of when the PDF being created, I think perhaps it's looking like it's on
the wrong line, where it's not.
On the spreadsheet I'm looking at, it's quite clear it's on a different line.
So the letter strategy is separate, very separate from the high pool one.
So I think it was quite clear that we wanted to distinguish both the high pool and the
strategy, a separate piece of the work really, just because the Hyde Pool is something that
we definitely want to do, we want to proceed with that. However, in terms of the leisure
strategy and some of the funding that may, some of the activities that may be funded
out of that, that forms part of the larger strategy. But in terms of this, we just wanted
some clarity over the Hyde Pool in a specific capital programme that will go ahead, but
the ledger strategy is a wider piece of work.
Thank you for that.
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:28:12
So then, so taking care of that, I guess,
so I've either lost sight of or don't yet know
what is it kind of line by line in the ledger strategy.
And I take your point from earlier that
these are kind of estimates that will get
kind of revised and built on.
So maybe there's some work going on in the background.
But I'd be interested in anything that can be shared
around what sits within the 2 .4 million
in the leisure strategy.
And I guess, listening to your explanation just now,
I guess if we have a whole leisure strategy
that is expecting to cost us two and a half million
and then a single asset that needs to be refurbished
that costs six million, it raises a question in my mind
as to whether we're maybe allocating too much capital
to one specific thing,
and maybe there's an opportunity to review things
more generally across the district.
Yeah, sorry, thank you, Chair.
So there's a huge amount of work ongoing
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:29:15
in terms of the strategy,
but one of the pieces of work that has already been conducted
is about our leisure needs,
and one element of that piece of work that came forward
is that we are drastically below our requirement for swimming.
So in terms of dry sports, in terms of field events,
actually, we're pretty, you know, in a good position.
However, when it comes to our swimming ability or capability,
that is far below where it needs to be.
So there needs to be, in terms of their strategy,
there should be more focus at this moment in time.
They're thinking there's been more focus
on putting our swimming provision in
as opposed to, you know, kind of like dry side sports, as it were.
But that will be dictated and informed by the leisure work
and the leisure strategy that comes forward.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:30:13
Have you exhausted your questions or?
I'm possibly exhausted the room, I don't know, but the...
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:30:20
Yeah, so I guess we'll see that greater detail on that further,
further down the line. It feels, in some way, I kind of think maybe we're spending 8 .5 million pounds
thinking about our leisure strategy which includes a high swimming pool, but kind of within that,
it's an unavoidably large expense and I do appreciate that if we're a bit behind on swimming
and not refurbishing one of the few ones we've got
is probably not a good kind of starting point.
It just seems like an awful lot of money
versus what we're allocating to the whole strategy,
even though I'm a bit patchy, if I'm honest,
on what that wider strategy is picking up on.
Yeah, so definitely, as I said,
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:31:13
these figures are indicative.
As the less strategy is further developed
and we get more clarification around the costs or various options around high pool, then
those reports will come forward and members will be able to form an opinion and make a
decision based on the various options that will be available.
But, for example, when we're going future down, many years down the road, Ossipool
has a leisure centre involved in that.
It's trying to factor all those different provisions in.
But to give an example, in Seven Lakes we spent 21 million on the leisure centre.
To give you context, that 6 million doesn't actually buy that much nowadays, to be quite
honest.
Thank you for that.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:31:59
Councillor Thomas.
Sure, I just want to follow on from what Councillor Martin said, actually.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:32:05
So the indicative costs here, the thing I was trying to get in in my mind was, so what's
the scope and duration of that work, right?
And then how does that then fit in
with where we're going with the new lecture facility?
And then, you know, if you look at our
medium term capital programme,
there's an overlap between those two,
which is, you know, arguably what you would expect,
you know, you maintain the existing provision
whilst you're making provision for the new facilities.
So I think what would be useful for us
is to understand the scope and duration of that work and how that, even that indicative
cost was built up.
Because there must be a little bit more substance behind it that allows us to sort of, us to
understand how that fits in, and as Councillor Martin said, with our medium -term plan for
leisure facilities in the district.
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:33:09
So I think it's fair to say that both of those projects are at early stage, so we started
them from like the middle of last year.
And there's a lot of work that's ongoing to try and understand the IDR and ledger provision
needs, but how, you know, going forward, what the various options are for how we may deliver
the most effective utilisation in terms of resources for the ledger division.
In terms of where these costs currently sit at the moment or the profiling at the moment,
as part of the medium term capital programme, there is phasing in there in terms of the
spend on these two programmes.
I was just very quickly trying to find it so I can inform you what they are.
So in terms of the high pool, so we're suggesting that we will spend $2 million next year and
$4 million the year after.
And for the letter strategy, again similar.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:34:20
Okay Councillors, any other questions?
Go ahead, Councillor Thomas.
Yeah, thank you.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:34:32
Again on Appendix B, we have two line items in there on grounds, maintenance, equipment,
replacement 2026 -27 and another one which says future years.
So one is 242 ,000 capital receipts,
which is part of equipment replacement
and part of a 10 -year plan, so you understand that.
And the next is linked to the ET reserve.
So we've been putting money presumably in a way
to make sure that we could actually fund
this vehicle replacement because we saw it all coming.
My question is, does that also link into our carbon reduction plan as a council,
so those vehicles that we're buying are making a positive contribution
to our overall net carbon reduction?
That's it, thank you.
So there's two points I'm going to pick up on that.
Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:35:29
The first point in terms of the, what's referred to as the VETS, the Vehicle Appeasance Reserve,
that's been quite depleted.
So in this year's budget, I'm making reserve to put money back into that in order to fund this programme.
Also, in terms of the programme, really we're only looking for probably the next three years.
And it says 10 years in the title.
we're only looking towards the next few years because that's my priority until the new
authority is in position, my focus is on the next few years. In terms of our carbon aspirations,
all of our procurement, not just vehicle procurement, not just capital,
is baked into it. So it's always considered as whenever any sort of procurement is done,
then that's always an element of that purchase, is always a consideration in terms of how
impact on net provision, on net zero position?
Thank you, thank you, Chair. Sorry.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:36:55
So under item six, garages, come on, we make a lot of money on garages.
I'm sorry.
Thank you very much.
But just in terms of line item 16 on new builds, so we've got a budget growth of 5340,
and it says in here that the new build programme
needs to be realigned to reflect movements
due to project delays.
And I just wonder what those project delays were
that were contributing to such a, you know,
fairly big change in our finances.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Thomas.
The answer to this is more complicated
Jonathan Smith - 0:37:47
than it probably can come across in the papers.
So obviously we have a new build pipeline.
Obviously we have the aspirations to build
a minimum of 20 properties per year through the HRA.
Not through build, but acquire, add to the stock.
There will always be fluctuations year to year.
So for example, the HRA business plan
which was approved by full council in February 24,
that business plan obviously set aside
five million pounds per year up until the year
2040, there or thereabouts.
Again, please don't quote me on the actual year,
but it's only 18 years worth of that,
so five million pounds minimum budget.
Now, obviously we have to find developments
and we have to build a pipeline
and offices are going out and speaking to developers
and obtaining sort of, you know,
engaging with the developers and bringing forward schemes
to members to approve and certainly through cabinet
that when we find the scheme, that's then approved
on whether or not we proceed on that.
Now, in terms of the movements here,
because generally the budget for the HRA new builds line
should be five million pounds or there or thereabouts.
In previous years, so for 23, 24 and 24, 25,
we had a couple of big schemes.
So for example, the scheme over at Risborough Barracks,
there's one in Hyde, in the boundary road.
So those schemes were added to the programme,
which then it wouldn't then necessarily look at,
look like five million pounds,
it would look at probably,
I think it was about 15 million
because it was a carry forward.
The first year we spent virtually nothing
because we'd only just started the programme,
so we had five million pounds.
It wasn't used in the first year,
it was carried forward.
That created a budget of say 10 million in the second year,
having spent nothing in the first year.
And as you can probably see from this document,
the original budget for 20,
or the current budget for 25, 26,
was actually 12 .7 million,
which is obviously significantly more
than the usual five million.
Based on the movements in the development,
so for example, some of the developments,
so for example, Risbir Barracks, hasn't quite completed.
We're expecting, I believe, completion in August of 26,
so later this year.
So there's been some delays,
but obviously it's based on developers completing the units.
But the movements really are more about the fact
that we expect, based on our revised position,
and obviously we have a number of meetings
with our housing team, the revised position is
that we would need 7 .3 million specifically
for the original budget for this year.
So it's actually a saving on the 12 million from last year.
So it's more reflective of effectively a reprofiling
and then the movements between that, yeah.
But the five million pounds roughly is the budget
and the budget that's been set obviously is just,
it's based on the need and how we've updated that pipeline.
We do that every six months.
We look at what's the forecast position.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:41:02
How we exhausted our questions?
Yes?
Okay then.
Right, so the recommendations for members are to receive a note report OS 2508 and that
feedback be provided to Cabinet.
Can I invite somebody to propose?
Councillor Wing to second Councillor Thomas and can we take a vote?
Okay, thank you.
So that's the end of our meeting.
Thank you very much for attending.
We can now go home.