Licensing Sub-Committee - Tuesday 5 December 2023, 10:30am - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting

Licensing Sub-Committee
Tuesday, 5th December 2023 at 10:30am 

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Slide selection

Mrs Sue Lewis - 0:00:00
morning everybody, this is the meeting of the Licensing Sub-Committee, the first item on the agenda is just to elect a Chair for this meeting, if I could have a proposal and a seconder please.
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:00:12
happy to second.
Mrs Sue Lewis - 0:00:15
we agreed, thank you very much.
everybody.

1 Election of Chairman for the meeting

2 Apologies of absence

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:00:19
Good morning and welcome to the meeting of the Licensing Sub-Committee. This meeting will be webcast live to the internet, for those who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you'll need to leave the Chamber for members officers and others speaking at meeting it's important that you use the microphones so viewers on the webcast and others in the room may hear you.
would anyone with a mobile phone, please switch it to silent mode as they can be distracting, I'd like to remind members that, although we have strong opinions on the matter under consideration, it is important to us to treat members officers and public speakers with respect, thank you very much,
OK, so I'd like to introduce the panel.
Gary
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:01:06
I am Councillor Gary Fuller, I represent Sangay and we're spokesman, and on the cabinet member for.
resident engagement and accountability,
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:01:16
Cllr Tony Cooper - 0:01:18
managed Councillor John Cooper and are represented on the Marshwood.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:01:23
mindful Thomas I'm an independent member representing a New Romney.
to the
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:01:30
OK, so apologies for absence.
that's known declarations of interest.
Cllr Tony Cooper - 0:01:46
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:01:47
known, and I don't have any declarations of interest declarations of
Cllr Tony Cooper - 0:01:57
lobbying, I don't have any declarations of lobbying normally thank you very much.

3 Declarations of interest

4 An application for a Premises Licence in respect of: IOH Deli, 17-19 High Street, Hythe CT21 5AD

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:01:58
OK, we can move on to the item that we have before us this morning, this is an application for a premises licence in respect of iWatch, Delhi 17 to 19 High Street Hyde.
in the report that DC all 23 27 and Alaska Bryony to lead on that, thank you.
Mrs Briony Williamson - 0:02:22
thank you Chair.
and so the report before you outlines the application made by Mr. William Dunlop for a premises licence for the above address and the Licensing Sub-Committee must determine the outcome for the application the Committee is asked to consider the application for the premises licence and when considering the application the Committee must ensure they fully promote the licensing objectives the committee is obliged to have regard to the revised national section 1 8 2 guidance and the Council's own licensing policy.
the Licensing Sub-Committee is asked to note the contents of this report to determine the application and the options for determining the application are set out in section 4.
Ives of Hyde was granted a premises licence on the 27th of September 2021, the company subsequently went into liquidation and therefore the premises licence at the time lapsed. The previous licence had the following licensable activities on it, so hours that it was open to the public were Monday to Sunday, 7 30, am to 11 pm, and the sale of alcohol on and off sales Monday to Sunday, 8 am to
10 30 pm, on the 25th of October 2023 Mr William Dunlop submitted a completed application for the premises previously known as IVs of Hyde and Hyde High Street. The new application for iOS Delhi is for the hours open to the public. Monday to Wednesday, 8 am to 11 pm Thursday 8 am to 11 30 pm, Friday and Saturday 8 am to midnight Sunday, 8 am to 10 pm and New Year's Eve, 8 am to 1 30, am sale of alcohol on and off sales Monday to Wednesday, 8 am to 10 30 pm Thursday, 8 am to 11 pm Friday and Saturday 8 am to 11 30 pm and Sunday, 8 am to 9 30 pm, with New Year's Eve being 8 am to 1 am and late night refreshment, Thursday
11 pm to 11 30, pm and Friday and Saturday 11 pm to midnight through the Live music Act. 2012 live music and recorded music would be regulated and are not considered licensable, licensable activities between 8 am and 2,300 where there is an alcohol licence in place. Therefore those activities are not shown above and there's some additional explanation. The opening hours are the times when the premises will be open. This can be inside and outside, but doesn't take into account the operating schedule, which may further restrict the use of the premises for clarity. The rear garden and the pavement seating must close by 2,200 sale of alcohol on sales always finished 30 minutes before closing time so that customers have drinking up time and late night refreshment if hot drinks and hot food are to be served after 11 pm an applicant must apply for late night refreshment if a premises is open past 11 pm it is recommended that they offer copies and snacks
and the Home Office revised guidance under section 1 8 2, of the Licensing Act 2003 dated December 22, advises that if conditions are imposed, deregulation has the effect of suspending them between 8 am and 2,300 where the following criteria are met if the music takes place between the hours of 8 am and 11 pm.
at the time of the music entertainment. The premises are open for the purposes of being used for the sale or supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises, and if the music is amplified, it takes place before an audience of no more than 500 people. If live or recorded music is played outside of 8 am to 11 pm, any conditions applied to the license will come into effect, for example, if live music is played from 7 pm to midnight, conditions will only apply from 11 pm to midnight only in the event of a review of a premises or club licensed as the Licensing Act. Go on to say under section 1 7 7 8 3, allow a local authority to lift the suspension applied to deregulate live and recorded music between 8 am and 11 pm which in turn effectively removes the deregulation, allows any existing conditions to have effect during those periods and under section 1 7 7 7 A for permit, the local authority to add conditions to music as if it were regulated entertainment. This guidance goes on to advise that more general licence conditions, for example, those relating to overall management of potential noise nuisance that are not specifically related to the provision of entertainment for example signage asking patrons to leave quietly will have effect. Despite this deregulation of music, the application for a premises licence can be seen at Appendix 1. This hearing has been required by the Licensing Act 2003 because valid representations were received from Environmental, Health and members of the public
and the representations can be found at Appendix 2.
so the Licensing Sub-Committee has the following options to grant the application, grant the application with amendments, add conditions to the licence, reject whole or part of the application, the Committee is asked to note that it may not add conditions or amend the licence merely because it considers it desirable to do so, the Committee must only consider evidence that relates to the four licensing objectives, any conditions added must promote the licensing objectives.
thank you Chair.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:07:54
I just ask the panel members if they've got any questions for Bryony.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:08:01
I'll just have one, if I may, just in just a point of clarification, really just in section 2.2, when it talks for clarity, the rear garden and pavement seating must close by 2,200 is not covered by a separate pavement licence or other arrangement, no, that's just because that's what the applicant applied for so only the front is covered by the pavement licence, so the rear is just guided by the application OK that's great, thank you very much OK,
so I'll ask Mr Dunlop if he'd like to speak as the applicants, as I say for you, address us and just make us aware of the things you wish us to consider, thank you very much.
Microphone A - 0:08:43
I would like to keep my mussels in the gardens from 10 10 pm, so I don't think it's unreasonable and we haven't got there to 9 pm, we make sure everyone leaves a garden about 10 o'clock my hours downstairs in the actual restaurant.
I'm not too bothered if it stays up to 12 o'clock, it's just to cover me, people were not somewhat rushing them out of the building, so I don't care if it's my original time to keep to I'm really happy about it which is so I didn't have to.
just to cover myself less time for that.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:09:24
we've received notification from Mr Dunlop, and we've we've read that ahead of the meeting as well, so I just wanted to ask if any of the panel members have any questions on that date Lotto's Mr Dunlop.
Cllr Tony Cooper - 0:09:42
I haven't got one or two of a major Michigan law misrepresentations here, which is sending yesterday or last night, it is referenced in paragraph 2, if you say you are familiar with the Equality Act.
Alan was just wondering if anyone goes down High Street to go into your property different, this is step.
gear provided ramps to allow disabled people to get in where happened, but I have access to the rear garden where people can go and access to the garden, there was only a small step at the front, I mean like properly 5 centimetres where people will move says we can help in we are very small downstairs, it's an outbuilding and nobody is hard.
would be about 26 downstairs, but we do our best.
that, and the second point I would like to make is this.
if there is a condition to close the garden at night and whatever time is decided, how would a disabled person get out if the entrances blots or to relax it's blocked, because you understand, when you go into the garden itself, there's a lot of steps in the garden and is also a separate part where someone with mobility issues may guilt if that makes sense?
we have, we have plenty of space for someone in a wheelchair, to go from Newry to Gatwick, as platforms will go up on slopes.
we don't get many people ex's except in the rear garden anyway must be able to come from the front, we might have a few neighbours or people who have in a wheelchair rule who will exit the back way or have trouble walking but that there's no blockages there really well nothing in the way for them to.
OK, that's fine, thank you very much.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:11:29
if I may.
just in in respect of Item 14 of the note that you sent us, she said, as indicated above, I propose to implement the recommendations made by Environmental Health, although I would like the garden to be able to be open until 10 pm instead of 9 pm, so in your proposal you're proposing to
implement the recommendations made by Environmental Health, is that correct, if that is correct and I I have tried in the past and do everything I was told today?
yeah
I don't think it's unreasonable to be gone through 10 o'clock
I'll put more signs that will happen, so unless you've already been sampled in respect of the neighbours.
Microphone A - 0:12:14
now I want us, coming from a garden at 10 p.m. We make sure my staff make sure everyone leaves the go at at 10 p.m. Site.
and I'm happy for the music to be turned off, even if its background used it to pay off at 9 p.m.
I did speak to Daniel and we talked about background music in the garden, if I have speakers, they can be set to a certain level, what is the correct?
correct level, so I would hope to get out get that done before next summer possible.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:12:53
just another question from a in item 32 of your responses, Well, you've you've we've actually said that restricting the garden to 9 pm will be detrimental to the business and the business relies upon the garden for it to be viable. That's what you use station in section 32 could you just elaborate on that a little bit yeah, the reason I have
Microphone A - 0:13:17
a 26 down downstairs in the winter time everyone knows hybridised, isn't it, you know, I, I get a little more trade in the summer time for people coming to visit the area in understanding the local holiday parks visiting the beach
and I need the gardens to survive, you know, it's I have a lot of people come in there.
yeah, so I need it and also I'm a food establishment, I keep getting this thing of loud music, loud music venue, which I'm not, we have liked music but background music and you know.
coming into next spring, something that I want to be able to do that frequent moves in a place you know make it a place to come and a not the music is not a big thing to me really
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:14:08
yeah, thank you very much for that.
Brian
sure?
Mrs Briony Williamson - 0:14:16
thank you, Chair, and so in response to Mr Dunlop statement, we did have a couple of residents come back with some points. It was quite last minute but Mr Dunlop has agreed that they could be read out. So if you don't mind, if I just read out the comments from the representations, so the first one says I have read through this, which is Mr Dunlop statement and can see no real effort of mitigation on behalf of Mr Dunlop, the application, in essence, is asking for the same hours outside with an extension inside. As I have noted previously, if Ives gets the same garden licence, an extension to the hours requested, the council is merely rewarding Ives for the previous transgressions they have pulled out and IBS failed and failure to deal with it. On a couple of points he makes. I would comment as follows.
on point 12, I'm sorry to hear that the objections have caused Mr Dunlop, significant stress and detriment to my mental health. Perhaps he now gets a better idea of what it's like living next door to Ives and the significant stress and detriment to the mental health of the neighbours that has occurred and to point 13 and 14 if the team at Ives had been working so closely with the environmental team. How has the team noted on four separate occasions excessive noise when they have attended his acoustic music session? I'm sure they would have provided recommendations on the noise levels, so to be called Ives to be called I've is out on four separate occasions, makes this claim sounds slightly disingenuous other venues in the high street remedies Henry's and the King's Head, to name but a few all offer live music, but don't seem to have issues around noise complaints as their music is all inside. The issue of music in the garden is still not being addressed if music is allowed up until 9 pm erased reiterate, I want a vibrant, diverse, high street, but the delivery of that vibrancy must consider all involved, including the neighborhood, and not just those who enjoy the amenities and then leave the area once their evening is over.
and then I believe this is the second representation responds with all of the people that have Mr Dunlop writes, all of the people that have visited the deli over the last two years have commented on how nice the venue is and how much they have enjoyed their experience there I have customers that travel from all over Kent and sometimes further afield in addition to my regular customers that live in Hyde,
this is not entirely true. Plenty of comments on Trustpilot are to the contrary, and he just copies a couple of the reviews that were not so positive. Mr Dunlop writes. In order to clarify that the provision of late night refreshment is to provide hot drinks and food and does not include alcohol unless I am missing something he is applying for a licence to sell alcohol until 11 and 11 30 at night, if the garden has to empty earlier and he only has a small amount of covers inside, whereas everyone going to go to continue drinking and then Mr Dunnett writes the garden will be closed by 10 pm and I have agreed to limit live music to twice per month at weekends only
and any live. Acoustic music will be finished by 9 pm and will be at an acceptable level. There will be no dancing, and the music is soft guitar, jazz acoustic music to be played whilst eating food. I'm sure that I and my neighbours will welcome the reduction to live music to just twice per month.
in soft guitar and jazz acoustic. Are you not amplified, is absolutely fine at a reasonable level if this proves to be the case. I'm looking forward to a visit in the summer note that we also welcome the reduction in the volume of the recorded music, Mr Dunlop states, that if the music is too loud we can ask for it to be turned down, but you can't walk in and do that during someone's life set and, to be frank, Mr Dunlop is not someone you can have a reasonable conversation with the incidents of intimidation, including being told to effort, cooling or snakes, and having our photos, names and addresses posted on his Facebook page had been previously documented elsewhere but are still relevant. I understand that running a business is stressful after 37 years as a managing director, but being offensive is not the way to carry on, especially in a small community setting. In conclusion, none of us want Mr Dunlop's business to suffer and we welcome good food and ambience. What we don't like is excessive noise and being bullied when we stand up for ourselves, unless IVs do, as they say, and control the level of noise, we will carry on calling out the response team and I would agree with the environmental team that the garden should close at 9.00
thank you.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:18:40
any other panel members have any comments on it.
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:18:45
just a quick one mentioned you discuss some mitigations, has a noise limits, have been mentioned and is that viable in an outside setting,
Folkestone & Hythe Officer - 0:18:58
actually that could go to environment or health as well, actually, if it's acoustic then no not really also outside you can't really do limiter because of other factors that can affect it, you've got a large car move or truck going past you could set it off in so it's really limited for instructional building whereas could contain suicide.
Microphone A - 0:19:20
I have asked our standing performance have been.
of ways of me controlling the noise and the limps, I'm allowed to beer.
and I've just been given such loose.
rules to to go by and is so hard, you know some summit's, we'd have loud music in the garden and we the way we were told today was go to the nearest house and judge it by air, so which we did.
go back into the garden somewhat as a clear night, so the noise travels more, but to be faced very, very hard to judge when you have conifers in place and also we only have music, you know.
it was once once or twice a weekend for two hours, and it wasn't all the time so.
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:20:08
actually this does mention somewhere that you'd be willing to limit the music to twice a month, doesn't it is that does that still stand?
Microphone A - 0:20:19
yeah, I'm happy happy for that.
lots of continue to have a background music but live music, I'm quite happy to have it twice a month.
Cllr Tony Cooper - 0:20:33
yeah, I've got a couple of questions day on that Facebook, can you tell us how many people sits outside and how many people will sit inside and what is the venue's capacity in respect of fire, etc.
Microphone A - 0:20:49
inside we have about 2020 seats at our table, then we have of about four stools parcels.
in the garden is about 40 to 45 seats.
yeah
and the capacity.
Cllr Tony Cooper - 0:21:09
Microphone A - 0:21:12
it's probably about 17 social.
Cllr Tony Cooper - 0:21:18
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:21:19
thank you OK.
is there anything else you like to say from what you've heard from the other?
responders
Microphone A - 0:21:33
I know I did discuss with Bryony that we said to Bono, but in the past I have before even started work on the gardener, had a letter sent out to neighbours and like on was welcomed, it wasn't it doesn't belong to the high street so from day one before we even had anything you'll have seven neighbours.
Ivan may become unstable, driveway which kicking things around and certain neighbours, you know it's just always been negative before we even had to live music or moves and they even have played at the garden then so yeah.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:22:08
I think we can move on to the representations now, Brian has OK.
in the pack, we have one from one of the responsible authorities.
which is environmental health, I don't know if you do you want to speak or do you just want to present it, as
Folkestone & Hythe Officer - 0:22:29
we don't have any favourite things to add to this statement, to be honest, the equivalent you guys have any questions you'd like to ask us.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:22:36
a loss of panel Gary is something you'd like to to ask on representation one from Environmental Health and yeah, I suppose my
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:22:42
question is why 9 pm and not 10 pm, what material difference does that make?
Folkestone & Hythe Officer - 0:22:49
PA, partially to my colleague, Sam Stone, who is the case officer for that, and he's been dealing with the residents a lot, and Neil yeah to be honest, that the the 10 o'clock
we have received a number of complaints of noise until 10 o'clock.
nine o'clock was representing a middle ground in many ways for us.
that seems to be the main point here, that the the main source of contention that that last hour, I'm obviously the music's going to stop at non o'clock, and it's just whether that last hours is acceptable for people to be out there, we have witnessed noise from people after the music has finished during that hour.
yeah, you'll see from them from the from what we've provided, we've only witnessed noise that we felt was a problem on four occasions.
so we haven't established statutory noise nuisance.
so.
we yeah, our opposition is very much.
that sort of balance between, I would say, but yeah, we, I think nine o'clock was if, if, if the music finished annum and or all the activity outside finished and on o'clock that was felt to be, you know less likely to cause a disturbance in neighbouring properties that last hour still has, we still have had issues during that dialogue basically in answer to your question.
tell me something and I thank you.
so yeah, so just to be clear in terms of the the representation.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:24:34
it makes a couple of it says a significant number of complaints from several households for occasions, as we've heard from the case officer.
witness needs to be unreasonable, and in here he talks about a compromise, as this is a mixed commercial slash residential area, so I think in terms of what Dan was saying that it was deemed to be you know or a compromise position the the the 9 o'clock finish as opposed to the the 10 o'clock finish in terms of the the reasons for that is very clear that excellent in the the statement from Environmental Health on the objective associated with the prevention of public nuisance, so again it's very clear how that lines up with the four objectives we need to consider.
I don't know if there's anything else that Mr Dunlop would like to say.
Microphone A - 0:25:32
there's many pubs restaurants on the high street which have licences to a lot like my do, I see one of the people objective I didn't mention the sunshine, they have a licence until 1 pm and they have live music, DJs and they have a lot of trouble outside and want to have a pace over the road from me remedies. I have news outlets lifelogging school time and they have people come outside in 2030.
future, with a lot of people come out for their swearing and my place is kept immaculate, I control or control Mustafa trachoma best to teach him Daniel actually give me some points to go through which I actually had to meet my staff members and got them to do the best that we can.
there are so many other places, I'm a small innovator, I'm a coffee shop or so sandwiches because after the lunch.
then we're up and twice at the weekend.
Friday and Saturday.
Sunday reopen until about 5 o'clock, so there's two nights where all the other places are open every night of the week I know I'm on judged on 4 for Council two years of noise, it seems crazy, it's amazing,
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:26:57
can you do you think you've had a reasonable opportunity to present your case this morning?
yeah, yeah yeah, I hope you read through this the posters with my dad, but that's Mummy.
I will forgive.
every objection of hope, however, no middle point on earth.
year.
Microphone A - 0:27:19
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:27:19
and if I can just just to go back to Item 14, you do you do say in that representation that you propose to implement the recommendations made by Environmental Health, and so, just just to be clear, the ones that they've actually said, it's the garden rear exit to be close to 2,100, the rear exit, the reluctant areas to close to 2,100 clear signage inside and out to remind patrons to be respectful to the neighbours whilst on and leaving the premises staff to assist the quiet disbursement. Patrons from the front of the premises and staff to monitor smoking areas to ensure patrons are not causing a disturbance to nearby residential premises, and the reason for the objection from Environmental Health was associated with
the
was to say written and all brought attention to the operating schedule and linked directly to the prevention of public nuisance. OK
I just have one more question for you, just in terms of staffing, do you have the doors staffed and you monitors, so that you have a separate person who who monitors your front door and a rig and or no I
Microphone A - 0:28:27
don't because I'm a restaurant or club state allmymovies venue where we only have background music, you know it's people ate and when food is not a pub it's not a nightclub, so we don't need that. You know, I've had too much trouble in two years and that was from someone coming in within 15 minutes. We've asked them to leave and they haven't left and as soon as well, what we've done, we find a place and that's the only trouble we've ever had there, so it's never
they've had no reason to have people in the doors or anything like that.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:29:05
purchase but asked one final question in terms of monitoring people who have CCTV cameras you've identified on your drawing, where they are, how CCTV monitored when you're actually open, how does that actually work, so you're aware of what's going on at the front and the
Microphone A - 0:29:23
rear of the property, for example other seasonings, it's not monitored but we have staff throughout the building we have Slough downstairs in my kitchens and in the garden inside and out so
we then have we then have we now we're a small business, but I have someone who can monitor cameras constantly in front of a small business
much brawny.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:29:42
Mrs Briony Williamson - 0:29:43
thank you Chair, I just wanted to raise one point, Mr Dunlop stated, I think it was point 14, he would agree with Environmental Health recommendations, I don't believe he intended to agree to what they've submitted in their representations, so I believe just to make things clear that he was still keen to apply for the 10 pm in the garden am I correct.
yes, although he agrees to their recommendations with regard to noise level and signage, and all of those things, I think he's still wanted to apply for the garden until 10 pm just wanted to clarify.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:30:20
OK, I think if there's no more representation and Mr Donald feels that he has had an opportunity to to present his case adequately this morning.
will actually retire and consider our decisions, so if we could record netsuke, thank you.
OK, thank you very much.

4 An application for a Premises Licence in respect of: IOH Deli, 17-19 High Street, Hythe CT21 5AD

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:30:49
so we've spent quite a bit of time deliberating on this and taking all of the information that we've been presented with, so I can read the following statement, so the decision of the committee is to grant the licence has presented for the hours identified in the licence subject to the adoption of four conditions recommended by Environmental Health and they are that the garden rear exit is to be close to 2,100 hours the clear signage inside and out to remind patrons to be respectful to the neighbours whilst on and leaving the premises staff to assist the quiet dispersal of patrons from the front of the premises staff to monitor smoking areas to ensure patrons are not causing a disturbance to the nearby nearby residential premises.
these support the licensing objective of the prevention of public nuisance a full decision notice will be issued within five days, thank you.
anything else bringing.
Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:31:58
thank you Chair, thank you very much, I think on that I'll close the meeting, thank you very much for your attendance today.
sorry, I do apologise, but yes, well, there are proposed downs.
happy to second all those in favour.
there was thank you very much, they will then thank you OK, so with that I will close the meeting, thank you very much for your attendance today, thank you.