Overview and Scrutiny Committee

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Tuesday, 23rd April 2024 at 6:00pm

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Slide 1
Cllr Laura Davison
Mr Jake Hamilton
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2 Declarations of Interest

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Declarations of Interest

Microphone Thirteen
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3 Minutes

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Minutes , 27/02/2024 Overview and Scrutiny Committee

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4 Minutes of the Finance and Performance Sub-Committee

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Minutes , 12/03/2024 Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee

5 KRF Planning - EU Entry / Exit System (ESS)

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5 KRF Planning - EU Entry / Exit System (ESS)

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6 Motion from Council (29/11/2023)

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OSC report Care Leavers 080424

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7 Overview and Scrutiny Forward Plan 24/25

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8 Overview and Scrutiny Annual Report

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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:00:08

Good evening, everybody and welcome to this meeting of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee. The meeting will be webcast live to the internet, for those who do not wish to be recorded or films. You'll need to leave the Chamber for members officers and others speaking at the meeting. It's important that the microphones are used, so viewers on the webcast, and others in the room may hear you would anyone with a mobile phone, please switch it to silent mode as they can be distracting. I'd like to remind members that, although we all have strong opinions on matters under consideration, it's important to treat members, officers and public speakers with respect

Good evening, everybody happy St George's Day and Shakespeare's birthday, welcome to this evening's meeting of the Committee and to our guests and officers and other council members who were here this evening for this important meeting and for members of the public who are listening along at home, thank you for taking the time to attend the meeting.

Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:01:13

we're going to begin with apologies for absence. Thank you Chair, we have no apologies, thank you, and are there any declarations of

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:01:17

interest from the Committee

Councillor Butcher

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:01:22

Cllr James Butcher - 0:01:26

I declare an interest as director of opportunities.

2 Declarations of Interest

Microphone Thirteen - 0:01:31

Councillor wing, yes, so to declare interests at the top of the tuneless.

Councillor Tony Hills - 0:01:39

Councillor Hills, you have a member Kent, County Council Deputy Cabinet Member.

I should declare that

3 Minutes

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:01:44

Thank you, Councillor Hills, OK, thank you, we're going to move on to the minutes, we have two sets of minutes in front of us, first of all the minutes of our meeting on the 27th of February, are there any comments on the minutes?

Note, could I have a proposal for those thank you, Councillor Martin, and a seconder, Councillor Elaine Martin.

all agreed on that agreed, thank you, and we have a set of minutes from our finance and performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee held on Tuesday the 12th of March, are there any comments in relation to those minutes?

No, and could I have a proposal for those thank you, Councillor McConville and a seconder.

Thank you, Councillor Chapman, and all agreed on those agreed, thank you very much.

4 Minutes of the Finance and Performance Sub-Committee

5 KRF Planning - EU Entry / Exit System (ESS)

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:02:43

Going to move on to our first main item of the evening, which is?

Our discussion on the European entry exit system, I'm really glad that we're all here this evening to be able to discuss this and share our kind of knowledge and expertise together and to see how we can collectively prepare ourselves for this change, so for the benefit of everybody this evening we're going to have a series of short presentations and we have

Our guests with us this evening who are going to lead those and then there will be an opportunity for questions between the presentation and then we'll have more of a collective discussion at the end, so I'd like to invite our colleagues from Kent County Council Toby Howell and

Microphone A - 0:03:36

Andy Geoffrey, to begin the discussion. Thank you. Thank you Chair the presentation I've got for you is an overview of exactly what the entry exit system is really as a very generic approach. Some of you may have seen it before. Some of you may know the facts. I'm assuming that people don't know anything about it at the moment, so it's going back to scratch exactly what E S is all about

for those of you who don't know me, I'm Toby Helm a strategic resilience manager for KCC Highways, but I'm also the operational lead for the Kent and Medway resilience forum when it comes to border related issues.

so e es is a new electronic system that the EU will be implementing, basically to collect data on those that are entering and exiting the EU and the Schengen area, and for those of you that on toward the Schengen area is the EU countries plus the likes of LeasCheann Stone Switzerland, Norway and Iceland etc so this is in effect going to be a security process to monitor third country nationals of which we are now one those of us that reside and,

Of UK origin, so to speak.

We woo we are third country nationals, so every time we enter the EU or leave the EU it will then be monitored by this system.

so it's currently scheduled to come into force on the 6th of October this date is not yet cast in stone, we're waiting for the EU to confirm that there are a lot of the nations within the EU that are saying they're not ready and there are delays, but at the moment that is the date that we are working to for planning it could be delayed, it's been delayed a number of times before but at the moment, as I say, that is the only date that we have hopefully at some stage in the summer we will get confirmation and be able to work from that.

So the real impact on us in Kent is because the Port of Dover and Eurotunnel are juxtaposed ports, so whereas everything else when you fly or if you travel from any other port in the country, all of your border checks are carried out on the other side of the Channel those border checks have to be carried out in England at the Port of Dover and Eurotunnel, so that is why it is a major impact likely to be on Kent.

so what you'll need to be doing is registering for the system and that registration is providing biometric data such as facial recognition, fingerprints and a scan of your passport.

So it's a bit similar to the process if you're flying back into the country at the moment at the airport, you've got a terminal that you can look at scan your face, scanning passport through the problem, of course that we have is that this was designed for airports where you do that it was not designed for ports where you're in a car and you may have up to seven people in that car that we then got to be processed.

Another problem that we have is that this has to be supervised by an officer from police so frontier which is the French Border Force, so it cannot be done elsewhere, it has to be done either at the Port of Dover or Eurotunnel, we are not able to pre-register anywhere else away from that so it was not until the traffic actually arrives at those ports that they can then be processed.

both the Eurotunnel and Port of Dover are doing a lot of hard work at the moment to prepare for all of this to really try to mitigate that impact that we're likely to see.

for Port of Dover. The only area that they can currently deal with this is within the buffer zone, and that is where IAS registration can be carried out at present. So therefore there's the possibility of more delays at the port because people have got to be processed more than just looking at the passport. So we could then see that queue of tourist traffic impacting freight as well as we see tourist traffic where, whereas freight can be dealt with, they can their self-sufficient more, they can be held for longer outside the port tourist traffic isn't necessarily as self-sufficient, so they need to be got through as quickly as possible, so we could see queuing in Kent more frequently

it's possible, therefore, that we could see Dover tap and operation broke more frequently.

So whilst remote registration is technically possible, it's not yet available.

There is a system being developed whereas the EU will develop the back end of a system and then it's each country to develop their front end, so when you register a few against France who look into their system etc but those front ends haven't necessarily been completed yet France in particular they've got the Olympics this year so that is what they are focusing on so therefore that has not been developed as yet so at the moment there is no technological solution no app available we're hoping that will be available next year and that will help speed the process up.

A lot of planning has been going on because this has been known for an awful long time. The problems that we really have is clear clarity on what's required for the portals for those of us managed trapping, etc has not yet been issued by the EU, so a lot of it is we're having to guess what's going to be happening, but there has been a lot of information and a lot of process is going on already. There's been planning Kent County Council

And the Kent and Medway resilience forum when working closely with Home Office and Department for Transport so far, looking at the traffic management gathering data, because we need that data to get a model to see what impact we're likely to see.

Also comes what are we gonna be doing about communication, what are we going to do about welfare, and is there any legislation that we can use?

So the impact of IOUs is likely to be far greater than the EU exit an awful lot of time, money, et cetera went into planning for a EU exit, and in fact a lot of it was attempt squib in the end, and it didn't have that impact.

So, whereas that was focused on freight, we are now having to focus on tourists.

And there is legislation for freight we have Brock where, when that is in place, HTV drivers heading to Europe are legally obliged to go down the them 28 20 corridor, there is no such legislation for tourist traffic so they will use their satnav, they will look at any possible route to either get to Eurotunnel or the Port of Dover based on whatever their women's at that time.

I mentioned modelling, we're getting a lot of good data to create that model, but my output isn't available and a reasonable worst-case scenario is being developed by government.

But at the moment we don't have that information, so until we've got back complete information it's then very hard again to plan planning for it.

So having depressed you all on that.

I'll hand you over to Andy Geoffrey.

Occur.

Microphone B - 0:12:19

success apologies for that.

Good evening, for those of you who don't know me, my name is Andrew Jeffery, and I am the head of residence and emergency planning at Kent County Council, I also chair the Kent and Medway resilience forums e, es, tactical planning group as chairman screener, so I'm going to talk to you briefly

about the preparation of the resilience forum has been making so far for yes,

So for the planning phase, and if there is a response phase that phase as well, Kent County Council is the lead agency within the resilience forum for this work, based on the fact that the impact will be felt across Kent and there is no immediate threat to life, so there's no need for the emergency services to take the lead on this.

All the groups you can see there are are multi-agency groups and the organisations who attend those groups attend ones where they can best contribute to the work of the resilience forum.

the yes planning groups are set s are in the middle, so we have the strategic group at the top, followed by the tactical planning group and strategic setting out strategic direction and the aims of the planning work tactical half pulling together the work plan to identify how we get there and then we have a subgroup focusing on community impact which compliments other groups in other parts of the structure. So on the left there is the structure that Toby has presented to you. The a multi-agency structure focusing on highways impacts covering drag on welfare, communications, traffic management, as he mentioned on the right-hand side, are the business as usual governance structures of the resilience forum and, in particular, relevance to the work we're doing at the moment are those around community resilience and business continuity

and the community impact group has been established to lead the planning work for communities relating to e es and it covers businesses and economy, community cohesion and public disorder, health and welfare, environmental and infrastructure issues, and aims to identify and co-ordinate information on the specific effects on residents and the travelling public in the camp in the county it is co-chaired by Folkestone Hyde and Dover District Councils.

as well as the structure you can see that on screen, the resilience Forum has set up a work plan to progress planning work through specific work streams, they cover four main areas, so firstly risk where we review our existing risks and develop, and he has specific threat and risk assessments for the county,

secondly, plans and capabilities where we are reviewing our existing plans, updating them and developing new ones as necessary, both the single and multi-agency settings, also looking at reviewing our business continuity arrangements as individual organisations and mutual aid agreements, and developing our response structures and rotas has needed.

thirdly, we're looking at training and exercising and ensuring all our response staff, rather than newly trained or refreshed in their role, is showing all plans are tested and exercised, and developing a multi-agency pan resilience forum exercise to bring all partners together and finally lessons identified where we review the progress of recommendations that have arisen from previous incidents from EU exit as well as capturing the lessons that have been identified during this planning phase

other work streams cut across those four areas Toby is already mentioned about traffic management and communications and driver welfare, reviewing our existing plans and making sure the capabilities we have are suitable for use in one instance responding to impacts from yes.

but also community impact, which again is a key one, the work stream and agree, but leaves it, will review the community and passionate analysis work that we previously carried out ahead of EU exit and updated when needed.

It will also look to understand the concerns of communities and the potential impacts on those communities of the new border checks and escalate any issues up through the planning group structure as needed that can be tapped call to strategic or, if necessary, to central government.

The final element of the planning work will be to look at how we manage any impacts from the new border checks on a day-to-day business as usual basis, our organisations and communities can't spend extended periods of time in instant response mode, so the reason its form will look to continue reviewing mitigations beyond the implementation of a yes in order that we can minimise disruption to services, businesses, communities and the travelling public in Kent.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:17:03

thank you Chair, thank you very much, both of you and we'll just pause at that point and I'll ask the committee if they have any questions specifically on the presentation that we've had so far, so I would suggest about the IOUs itself or the governance structures that have been talked about.

as the Committee to any members of the Committee, I have a question at this point, Councillor Butcher.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:17:27

Yeah thanks Chair, yes, there was a Member mentioned a task and finish group, some that included traffic management and the community impact group, and just noting that we've got colleagues from Hawk engineering then who will be hearing from shortly and clearly those are communities that are particularly impacted and will have ideas from the ground about the best way of doing things, so I'm interested in the best way of making use of their expertise and insights feeding into the governance groups that you're talking about.

Microphone B - 0:17:56

so her colleagues from Folkestone and Dover offer we talked a bit about that later as they seek to lead the group, but the Kent Association of Local Councils are a member of the community and pet group, so I guess either facing it through that's body or fitting indirectly to in this case for Hawkinge to Folkestone Heath via the

what other contacts in the Council is probably the best way?

Tickets issues escalated to that group.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:18:28

yeah, so are those routes concerned and can feel quite indirect, and we've got quite limited time.

so I guess it's is it's a request that we could make more direct use of the expertise and experience that's on the ground?

Microphone B - 0:18:45

Yeah, I'm happy to that's definitely thank you.

Thanks, Councillor Buchanan, thank you.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:18:49

Cllr Anita Jones - 0:18:56

Councillor Jones, well, it's clearly gonna be awful when it comes into place, and it's gonna have a big impact on our town and towns and villages.

Is there going to be an ongoing monitoring and ongoing modelling, as progress has made when this is implemented, so that we can?

We look forward and see when the end is in sight at the moment, I think if we have no idea how long it's gonna take to, but is there going to be an ongoing process, a process of muddling throughout, yes,

Microphone A - 0:19:22

there will be as as with every event that we have whether that's the current situations at Easter or summer when we do monitor that throughout the modelling that we've got we'll make sure is being updated accordingly, et cetera, but it'll be very live information but certainly that monitoring will be ongoing because we've got to be able to be flexible and adapt accordingly.

Cllr Anita Jones - 0:19:48

And how we can, how are you going to communicate that with the public?

Microphone A - 0:19:52

There will be regular tactical and strategic.

meetings that again incorporate the local district and borough councils, so then that goes out, there will also be a communications plan which ended is about to step in.

Microphone B - 0:20:06

Yes, so the o communications group, which is one of the ones Toby mentioned earlier they are developing a comes plan specifically for EAS related information, and that will include.

Her communication letter to the public as well as partner organisations and the Brazilians forum.

Cllr Anita Jones - 0:20:24

Thank you, I think something which is online and updated regularly would be very useful to councillors and the public.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:20:32

Thank you, Councillor Jones, Councillor McConville. Thank you. One of

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:20:35

their which leads to the main part of the presentation is focused on everyone going to the continent, but you made a point that there could be a significant impact of of outbound freak due to the visit or hold-ups. I don't know if you could sort of expand on that one and why you think that will be the case, and are we expecting that to be a very significant part of of the implementation changes or just sort of a small sort of after effect? It's I think it's from experience really

Microphone A - 0:21:03

so if we look at July 22 when we it was a big summer getaway, we had a number of incidents happen, we had a major crash on the 20 we had protesters on the in 25

Everything came together that if you put those into a tabletop exercise and nobody would have believed it, but it did happen so we had huge delays to until all the tourist traffic wore that Men was a huge backlog of that freight, so we ended up with four and a half thousand HTV parked up on the M 25, so I suppose that is in effect a reasonable worst-case scenario of what could happen if freight trying to get out of the country and then held up. If there's any other event, the modelling we're doing is based on all the systems doing as they should do and as the hard work that the portals are doing to make work, but it only takes a very fragile system and that then will have that knock-on effect on front

thanks for that, and I'm sure you know, I know a lot of work was done

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:21:59

in the aftermath of that event, so hopefully there are there's this discontinued season, there's better, better knowledge, better planning in case we do get to a worst-case scenario, hopefully it won't be as bad as the previous worst case scenario we can hope.

Microphone A - 0:22:15

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:22:19

and obviously the the new systems mentor, as you say a line more to you know how people travel by air airports, and such is there been any sort of discussion that you're aware of with the French Border Force to perhaps have a segregated segregated lines while they do at airports where we have a lot of EU returning traffic a lot of people here have EU passports where they wouldn't need to undergo the checks.

to take some some sort of some, some of the strain out of the main queue.

I might leave that to our experts opposite, but that seems like an

Microphone A - 0:22:50

excellent segue into our next presentation, thank you, Councillor

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:22:53

McConville, so we had you invited, Bannister, the chief executive of the Port of Dover, and Natalie bundle, whose original affairs manager for Eurotunnel were going to take these two presentations together if that's OK with the committee and then take questions after that self posted UK thanks.

Microphone C - 0:23:10

You got on.

good evening, everyone thanks for having me around so Doug Bannister, chief executive of the Port of Dover, I've been in the job since January 2019, and so that was pretty much landing on the eve of the first Brexit, and then we've enjoyed the ride since then.

So what I thought I do is is just kind of let you know a little bit about what we've been doing.

What the plans are and where some of the risks and uncertainties may still be now one of the things that's important around this, the Toby highlighted, is that this is not an issue for Eurotunnel and the Port of Dover, this is an issue for British passport-holders whenever you cross into the European Union wherever you do that you will be going through this process it just so happens with the juxtaposed controls that's going to be happening on UK soil at our two facilities.

Now we've been at this for four or five years now, the problem is that it took us three and a half of those years to get our government engaged, did it another a little bit more actively engaged and most recently I know I don't Natalie may tell you a bit about this but we've been engaging all over the place so for me personally I've been in Brussels I've been in Paris, I've been at Lille, I've been up in London to try and make certain that we're getting the right level of attention and the right level attract attraction on the things that we need to have in place.

one of the things that's really important when we started out on this is that we needed to find a solution that would keep people safe, so, as Toby said, the initial solution was about was similar to an airport and at an airport pedestrians in a nice, orderly way and well lit hall can present themselves in front of the border.

Our facilities, its car loads of people on a dark stormy nights, it's a very different process.

so we've we've gotten there now, one of the things that's important, at least as far as the Port of Dover is concerned, we've got a long term solution now that long-term solution is what we call our outbound controls project. What that's going to be is that is going to move the current order process deeper into the port and it's going to expand their capacity and, by the way, put them in the right order, because we're a little bit odd, is it the way it's lined up in the port? Now is the into France, and then you leave the UK all before your intention to travel, so it's kind of backwards we're going to fix all that

But importantly with this, what it's going to do, but through this project is going to create 40% more holding space within the port. That is the equivalent of tap, so what we should see, so when taps in and then eventually to brusque that's where it really starts biting and Folkestone right or in the outlying area. So with this project, its primary mission is to get the traffic off the roads and into the port, so we should see through this no more operational reasons for requiring tap, but we still need to eat, may need to use it for big things. Industrial action, weather delays, technical failures that kind of stuff, so it should lead to a profound effect

this project is dependent on on funding that we have been awarded by government but not yet granted as long as that comes through, we've got a project plan that is going to see those new controls, the first phase of the project, these new controls in place September 27, so that means that we've got to find a solution that is going to help us manage us between October 24 when it comes in September 27,

So for October, what we are going to be doing is we're going to be installing new facilities in the Western Docks on the site did some of you may know it? We prefer to it as our old boatyard on that site, there's going to be to coach halls that are created in those coach halls. We will have the full s registration process done, as well as the full Schengen checks crossing into the border. At that point in time, the coach will be sealed and it will proceed to the ferry terminal and sail on through as long as the seal hasn't been tampered with, it will probably be a better process for coaches than what we have today. We reckon that that's going to get us back up to our crime throughput levels of about 21 25 coaches an hour and that will allow us to handle our full volume of coaches, seamlessly cars for October. What we're going to be doing, so if you ever go Cliff walking, you drove by the port you're going to see a really, really big canopy, go up across our buffer zone, so we are allocating six lanes of our buffer zone going to put this canopy on talking for October, that's where the cars are going to get the registration process done, that's going to be done through a bunch of agents with a handheld tablet,

Going around the vehicle, what we couldn't do in our buffer zone is have passengers, tourists leave their cars, that is dangerous, so we've come up with this solution to be able to do that now that solution will be in place for October and will have all the resources in place.

I will come back to you with a bit of earthquake risk and uncertainty, but that solution is going to allow us to process about 400 and 20 cars, an hour that is insufficient to meet summer getaway demands.

it will be fine for October, likely fine, maybe a bit of busyness for Christmas, for it, for Feb, half-term, even for Easter, but when we get into the real heavy months of of September, excuse me of summer 2025, that's where we need something else so we've got an idea around that and that ideas that we are seeking to allow cars to be registered in our western box dogs on newly created land that we are reclaiming from one of the old dogs.

And with that process we anticipate getting up to 600 an hour, which is what we basically did last summer and over Easter, which all went awry.

So that doesn't have regulatory approval from their friendship, we're working really really hard on getting that, and you know we had a visit from the director general of police all foreign to the French border Fizi police, the director general of the Home Office they came down and I visited both of us.

and we can continue to work really hard on getting a solution, we're investigating all kinds of technology, resuming technology that would allow the assurance of the vehicle and its occupants through that process, so you know.

Roof forests, and if you, if you can make a mention of cars in the Western Docks, that'd be great.

now head, and so we're gearing up to as long as we can get regulatory approval, we're gearing up for that solution to be in place maybe just before Easter just after Easter next year what we don't want to do is impact on Easter itself if we're going through a bit of construction

now I think it's important and also to to appreciate that we spend a tremendous amount of our time considering how we may find solutions that would reduce the impact of our volumes on local communities certainly in Dover where we have the 20 the major access' going right through the town centre basically and on busy getaway days when the tourists as Toby was describing her finding all the ways in and gridlocked we are doing everything we can to avoid that we also know in the port of Dover that it's not just over the we look after because if we're having some challenges than that's going to impact further up the 21 and lead on Folkestone's doorstep examples of that so for summer 23 we we put in place some new infrastructure in some new processes and that allowed us to handle summer 23 in pretty good fashion Easter 24 this year I don't know if you guys will remember what happened in Easter 23 I remember very well I still have the scars

Easter 2 thousand and 4 completely different story everything sailed through it worked really well that's not to say that we weren't busy that's not to say that it was slow going on the roads we do have congestion in Dover it didn't impact further up the chain it worked really well and that's because we are constantly trying to find ways in which we can improve the way things the way things are going and will continue to do that

risks and uncertainties probably the last thing I want to cover so guys we don't know everything yet we don't know we don't have the technology we don't have the kiosk on the tablets we don't know how it's going to connect we don't know how long it's going to take we don't have as you know at least as far as ported over for the improvement that we'd like to see happen for summer 25 we don't have regulatory approval for that so we still have risked on certainties but will do trying to do is trying to work through everything we possibly can to minimise those risks uncertainties and get clarity and working very closely with our government with

the European Commission in Brussels

the French authorities Ministry of interior employee so frontier as well as locally with the Kent resumed form in all of our delivery partners as well so we're working really really hard on making certain that you know the reasonable worst case scenario of the Toby was talking about does not eventuate and I'll hand over to Natalie thank you

Microphone C - 0:32:51

I have one and I'm sorry to take my laptop him but what he's doing that so many Benville I've actually been at Eurotunnel for 23 years I'm a local resident as well so I do feel the pain that would take a kind of thing adds to my weight behind any argument that we have as an organisation a lot of the issues and challenges that we're going through a very similar to the poor we have got a different solution obviously are terminal is very different to how the port set out I'll be able to take you through our thinking and how we've got to where we are today with our IA solution

hold on all look about it worked out

right so

kind of looked at our table is a blank canvas and thought how on earth are we going to deal with this new challenge that we've got coming towards us mainly minimise impact without one obviously our customers to fill any impact we don't want any local residents to for the impact either clearly we're a commercial business we need our customers to keep coming back because it's been quite a challenge on the general public and asked specifically on the short straight so is trying to bring those back without putting too much fear amongst them

ideally we would have liked preregistration had the EU had the app ready in time for faster live there that would help with the solution that we we are with today we've got the Olympics coming this year in Paris so that Carter takes a priority for France which we know we fully understand we looked at it and thought right we need to try and minimise the boardercross in time and how can we do that so for those of you that have travelled we've actually created a new site which is part of our coach car park currently the image on the left is actually was earlier this week it's it's a bit more progressed now so what the plan will be customers were still arrive through checking as they do today they will be segregated for EU residents are ready they will bypass this that bypass the current the new zone that we're creating and any of the customers that need to will go straight on into the area for information. We're looking at about an 80% passenger rate, that's going to need to go through their 20% of our customers that go through our EU nationals already, but just for tourists. Specifically, it's 80% of our traffic is going to need to go through this zone. Similarly to the port of Dover, we use the kind of what do, what do we need to be able to get through checking that it's about 700 vehicles an hour, so we've taken all of that into how we build it and are one of our teams internally, looked at modelling and actually well, let's put that kind of volume through our system. Let's see how it reacts to a new border control area and we used a digital twin to help us design what we've got today. So the area that were created in the UK specifically and let's not forget, we've had to create the same in France as well, because people have got to come back in obviously, France is a little more ahead, they've had a little better weather than what we have here, so we're on the right. You can see what it looks like currently in France,

We have looked at the processing rate through the new control zone to be an additional six minutes. I have to say that's incredible considering what they've got to achieve, but we've actually done. We started probably a year ago on the construction side of it. We've eaten into some of our terminal to give us a bigger area to get the two cars through and essentially what would happen is vehicles will pull up to the new s zone once they've already come through check in there'd be directed to a booth where they'll then be processed. Our answer to EOT is slightly different to what the poor have gone through, purely because we can allow customers to get out of their vehicle in the zone that we've created, but just to go towards how we've worked on the six minutes. We use their model on based on a period last year where we were our peak capacity of our traffic and the year it was working and the graphic on the right shows you with the new zone that we're creating with the traffic levels that we had last year, which was our peak day last year, which was the east to get away.

there is no congestion so touch, whether that's a good day, there's no instance on board the roads or running well, and actually the area that we created allowed a greater capacity on site, which then allows the traffic to flow through.

So this is just to show you where we're at now, with the progress of the works. So just for a little understanding how it work, you will have a booth that you pull up to on that booth for your vehicle. You will have two kiosks, so we've gone for an airport style, kiosk so your passengers, your family, will get out of your vehicle. You will process all of your biometrics that you need to there, whilst under the governance of a path officer, so a French border official will be watching and two cars at once doing that he can watch for biometric kiosks at any one time once that's been completed. Bearing in mind you do it, obviously on your entry into the EU, that's valid them for three years, so you don't have to input that again, what you then return, whether it be through us, through the port, through an airport, you are then just checked. There's not a rear reapplication of your biometrics when she leaves this zone you head through to border controls, like you would today, so path, obviously will still be there to resource their booths,

and that is my final slide, but just to give some background, I was saying about the booth we have ordered 106 kiosks for the UK terminal since 53 parking areas for individual cars and, like I say, based on the volumes on a peak day where we need 700 vehicles an hour is an addition of six minutes onto your journey time.

So yeah, that wasn't too detailed, I just wanted to give it a bit of background on where we've come to on our solution.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:38:58

thank you very much, it's a lot to take in, but but that was really helpful, thank you both of you.

I'll open it to the committee for questions on those presentations.

Councillor Martin,

thank you Chair just my initial observation there, so two very

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:39:15

different sounding situations between the poor, and I'm just curious just to I, I think between you, you've answered it a little bit, but maybe you can just add a bit of colour to why it seems like less of an issue in in one site and not the other. I sense it's partly the fact that the Port of Dover doesn't have this the space to deal with, but it seems like one of us is handling it really well and the other one is going to it's doing a load of great work but may be struggling to come up with the same quality of solution just from a Eurotunnel

Microphone C - 0:39:47

perspective, remembering with a commercial operator as well, so we have control of our customers. We can pre-register them from a book in state, both the Port of Dover not to speak on Doug's behalf a separate entity and we also have a bigger terminal. Don't want a port doing our border controls after check in dug says their aim is eventually to get to that point, so we've got a different area that we were able to work with

essentially that's it I mean you yours another we got cliffs on the one hair we got water on the other hand and there's not much in between now are about controls projects Natalie was saying is that's the longer term solution that's going to be creating a lot more capacity and I should say how did we get that more land inside the port we relocated our cargo terminal which was in the corner of the Eastern Docks out to the Western Docks and that's created some space where we can actually construct all this so we are we're we're not putting something in that we think is going to be there for the next 40 years right we're putting something in that is going to get us to September 27

it will be able to have the same function is just can be delivered in a slightly different way just what just actually you notice we've not gone for permanent structures because the aim eventually will be attend a lot technological border so everything will be done on advance we won't need to do that so as much as I didn't touch on it bit what were at the moment is cost us 40 million pounds to get to where we are for this Ears project but that's not with as permanent structure in the hope that eventually once all the further border controls come in down the line it'll be a lot more seamless

I think I had Councillor Elaine Martin next

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:41:34

Cllr Elaine Martin - 0:41:38

thank you I just wanted to if there were any backup systems and I'm sure they will be in place if there's any major technology technological failure

Microphone C - 0:41:49

to Belfast yes in that remembering is a border of it's the paths in the French Board authorities a lot kinder system so there are things in place nothing has been confirmed and I know that the port has been in discussions the French very in tune to not wanting to cause destruction so the very conscious that actually on D-day or when the next holiday period is they don't want it to be awful in Ken so there are discussions in place for a back-up essentially

so they can the way the following the rest of the European Commission there's relish this is all it's a surplus our frontier there having to operate within how they're interpreting that regulation to apply to all member states

one of the things that they've talked about in order to across the European Union in order to mitigate the significant disruption and major border crossings is to allow the quite locally to reduce the number of registrations that need to be taken place and don't need to do a hundred per cent of them so they've got up relief about their that they can call upon and in particular what we're getting the processes bedded in and we're testing and trialling and working with new technology it does give us a bit a comfort that when these when the regulation comes in or the new regime comes in in October there's a relief valve to be pulled until we start to get into a better rhythm

thank you Councillor Chapman

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:43:33

Cllr Bridget Chapman - 0:43:38

thank you both a lot of work for I was really instead Mr. Bannister and what you said about the government perhaps not being a laser focused on this as you might have wanted until two or three years ago at some stage the buttons gonna get pressed on a general election

and I wondered what if you'd consider what impact that might have in terms of focus and what impact potential change of government have on this

Microphone C - 0:44:09

no all avoid going to political if I bay so so our government really

yes was this thing well over the horizon for a long time and it was just out there somewhere and whenever we tried engage a particular department whether it was DFT home off his Cabinet Office Foreign offers we're going after Treasury we went after 1 point time they don't point to another one and it wasn't until December 22 so not quite that long ago when home offers took responsibility for it

once that happened things started to move which was really good and so they are what's all the other Departments are involved in this they're the ones that are the prime movers engaging with with officials over in France specifically in Arcos I don't know that I don't know that any colour of government would have done that any differently and we were beating our heads against the wall, trying to get some sort of attention on it. I'm very pleased with the level of attention that we have now and we're getting some activity on it. I don't know, I don't know whether it changed that probably the one risk that we would have with a change of government is that a wonderful per day period, where not a lot happens, so it's around the timing of it, rather than the eventual outcome of the change of government would be where I think just to add one thing on that and I can tell you the reference debt

I think a lot of people within government just forget that we are juxtaposed, so a lot of ministers thought it's going to be the problem when you land, when you land in the country, forgetting that we have the border, obviously here, so it does completely right. It did take us quite some time to get some traction within government. They are very attuned to it now it will be very interesting when there's a general election, what they'll have to do, and we've done a lot of work with all of the parties to make sure that they're aware of what our plans are, but you never know when it actually happens

Thank you.

Cllr Bridget Chapman - 0:46:15

If there's no more questions from the Committee at this point,

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:46:17

Councillor Hills, you just won.

they were a great question.

I right in assuming I didn't hear it mentioned that the permit lasts

Councillor Tony Hills - 0:46:26

about three years yeah.

from the truck drivers once you've gone through your weekly run once they'd done it, they've done it, basically obviously the problem is tourism, and that's where the nightmare comes, but my money's on in October, the second election just before it happens.

Microphone C - 0:46:51

There was a good point we didn't touch on fate, especially as 10% of drivers are UK nationals, so for us the solution is going to be done at the border where it will be split, you'll have a EU national and so that's where it'll be done but you're right it's it it's a three year renewal so

And with that it may tell us in the three years' research every time across the border, so as long as you're travelling it you never have to do it again in a way which is, I think, good news as long as the app is in place to make certain that when you present yourself to the border that it knows that you've done that, I think that's still part of the challenge where we do have an issue with frame so are we was is probably more 20% or British drivers for the for the trade for the traffic that comes through.

but you know what they will just go through pretty quickly anyway, the issue is, is if it's going really slow for tourists and that blocks the access to the port and then the Perrineau Baca if that happens over an extended period of time.

then the trucks won't be able to return to Europe to pick up their next load, because most quite a lot of our drivers, they're through our facility to three times a week.

And then everything slows down and then you know.

Then there's impact on the shops.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:48:16

This seems that it might be a good moment to bringing our colleagues from Dover District Council to speak about the community aspect of

Microphone E - 0:48:24

this and the experiences that there have been in Dover, so we're joined by an edema says who's the chief executive and Jamie Pelt, who's the deputy leader at the Council over tea, both thank you. Thank you, Chair, yes, I under speaking and I think Nadeem I come in later on if we have any specific questions, so you are just to introduce myself. I'm Councillor, Jamie Pout and the Deputy Leader Dover District Council, and also the portfolio holder for transport, so have been looking into some of these issues quite extensively since May and meet with Doug quite regularly, so we're quite up-to-date with this

I think, yeah, I wanted to talk specifically about the community impacts, because obviously.

I think we've had quite a lot of technical issues and so in Dover obviously we we get quite a lot of these these issues and we suffer the consequences of these issues regularly, whether it's inclement, weather whether it's strike action, whether it's pianos dodgy employment practices, whether it's this regular holiday traffic coming through and you know whatever's gonna come from es will will obviously suffer the consequences of that as well Bradley corner further down the them 20 there will always get of more likely than us, I think so are the real issues that we we suffer in Dover I think are worth.

hearing from as we're on the coal face, it's not an inconvenience to us, it's not just an inconvenience to us not being out to be able to get to work, isn't just a bit of a pain, not being able to get to appointments for people is not just a bit of a pain, it could be a matter of life and death for the residents in Dover, so I think this is why it's critical, so I wanted to talk about that. That community impacts that community aspect because I think quite often it's lost by just talking about these technical points back in January I was taking part in a cost of living meeting with a whole host of people one of those people taking part was a head teacher from St Edmund score I think and she was the representative from the Headteachers' Forum from across the district totally unprompted is she spoke about this and so we weren't talking about a yes or traffic but she bought up raising the point that those no guidance they receive no guidance from KCC at all on how they should plan for upcoming issues they didn't know what they should plan for in terms of impact they didn't know how they should plan

disaster planning actually is what she for Easter as and Armitage myself and so I know what it's like on these really busy days to try and get into Dover over boys I teach and to try and actually gain to scope so what's it going to be like for those kids on those days when it's going to be particularly busy 14 our accuse I think you know we've heard about is Stagecoach can be running buses will students get to school or staff get to work and what's the plan for that because schools don't know if we don't know if they can't plan that you know what will we do so that you know there's lots of aspects I think that we need to think about those people need to know about

the are going to be particularly problematic

it's not just schools what about nurseries I'm not talking about your bedding plants in autumn I'm talking about nursery workers if we're saying the first five years of children's lives are particularly important in education was planned for them if staff can't get to work can provisions not open if they can't meet their statutory Guidance on numbers to they just close for that day for two days for the week for months on end

do we know I don't know if we're sure does that mean parents can't go to work you know these are massive knock on effects for people in a local community in a whole districts that might have a knock-on effect on people coming to work in this district on the whole county and I think these are issues we really need to think about and consider above and beyond the just the operational impacts that if those parents can actually get off their drives in the first place if they live right in Dover which often happens as multiple people have pointed out tourists trying to find ways in an out of Dover we can direct the the freight traffic but we can't direct those tourists and that that's what we'll problem right in Dover

you know if you're able bodied and you can walk to your local supermarket that'd be great if your car stuck on your driving you need to go and get your shopping if you're a young family you need to get some formula you get there but there's been no deliveries because the lorries are stuck on the out on the roads then what do you do are we thought about that I'm not sure if we completely have and if you're not able bodied and you're waiting for a Sainsbury's delivery and that's stuck out in the traffic while we doing about that because I don't know if we thought about that either or if we have I don't know if we said it out loud

I mean I'd like totally hate the fact that we rely on them but what about food banks they rely on people getting through to them they rely on getting food out to local people in Dove I think it is or in the district definitely there's a food bank that opens late now one day in the week so that people that work can get there are not during the day but out of hours so people were working during the day than go to the food bank in the evening if the votes of gridlocked are how those people can get there will there be any food when they get there if they're not getting deliveries if supermarkets that they rely on to get that food or not getting their regular deliveries and very rarely people talk about carers and care workers we didn't talk about them in the pandemic and I hope we can talk about them now

because if one of our councillors actually district council is is a carer and I was talking to her about this and she was just talking to me about a regular day she might start in deal at seven o'clock for example and get someone out of beds and then she might an hour later go to I dunno Dover and get another person out of beds and that bike might be the morning routine

but what if your two hours late to that next personal three hours late or four hours late because there's traffic and that second person is lying in their soil sheets

4 I was late there waiting for their insulin I don't know as all sorts of reasons why you might be going to get them out of bed what are we doing for those people are we setting up

are we setting up care workers in the town so they can walk, I don't know, but I think we need to think about that and we need to consider the impacts of those people's South East Coast ambulance, so they're going to do the same, but they're going to set up in the town where we expect to see motorbikes.

for paramedics, I don't know, but I think we need to consider all of those things, and in Dover I imagine that the same round here being a coastal area we are in all, I definitely struggled, specifically when there was the most traffic along the A 20 because they don't have staff sat the station down in the docks they rely on volunteers and so when there's particular traffic issues what do they do?

Another one, the last last point I just want to make is that quite a few staff who work at the Port of Dover or work in Border Force and got stuck in that traffic.

Who was supposed to be waved through, but often there wasn't quite the the marry up between the traffic.

staff and those, and so they got stuck in the traffic, and so the people that could help alleviate the traffic were stuck in the traffic. I mean, you could couldn't quite make it up, could you but yeah so all of those things need to be thought. Yeah, they're real people with real jobs, just trying to go about their day, leading their real lives we will face. I think that we need to alleviate, so I'm glad that we've talked about communication and so I really appreciate that that is being discussed at this point. Yeah, I I don't like it when people just come with saying sorry

Some say I don't like having people just come with problems.

So we've been offering up solutions.

The roundabout at samphire Hoe would be a great start to move tap away so that some of the people in Dover are not always impacted all the time dwelling, the A 2 would be a great solution so that we're not always using the A 20, and I know that would have an impact down here in focused instead of Anfield tunnels are not closed.

as often better CCTV across the network, so that that live, monitoring and live modelling that we're talking about might actually start to happen, we would definitely welcome that and that would feed into some live signage across the network that would definitely be welcomed.

I know that the team has offered up for KCC to station somebody in our CCTV operations centre, we would welcome someone to take up that offer so that there's real-time.

linking up with what's going on in the town and and where we can best put people to deal with those issues and a hard shoulder from Cottwood to Aycliffe. So we can actually provide some provisions for for tourists and for lorry drivers who get stuck in this this horrendous traffic. If it happens, let's hope it doesn't so you know sometimes it feels like we hear the same stuff from the same people when it comes to traffic. It'd be nice this time if we had something a little bit more radical, a little bit outside of the box. I don't know exactly what you're gonna get out of this, this meeting in terms of a resolution, but it would be nice to to hear you guys resolve

for KF maybe to be a bit more proactive and a bit more radical this time round, so particularly in Dover, and I know you guys suffer as well, we don't suffer again and again.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:58:39

thank you, Councillor Naseem, did you want to come in, thank you,

Microphone F - 0:58:43

Chair, or I'll be, I'll be brief.

If dogs enjoyed the pain for the last have many years, I can say I've been at Dover and.

Chief for nearly 24 years now, so I've got 24 years of history of enjoying this particular pain, and the one thing I've learned is there will be pain, because that's not because all of our partners don't actually do their very level best or dogs doing his best care of effort doing their best, the police are doing their best, but there's no magic bullets here and fundamentally you know the constraints, combined with the potential multiple points of failure in a very complex system, mean that at some point there is always going to be failure and Jamie's outlined what that failure can mean, but historically, of course, that failure might have just been for a couple of days or a day. Well, you know

The weekend of 0 off peak traffic. The really scary bit here is, we may be looking at a sustained period, which is why I think we're gearing up to particularly focus on the community impacts, because those quite graphic sort of community impacts that Jamie covered are one thing if they're for an afternoon or a day they're completely different if it's sustained over many months or even years, and I guess my biggest fear in all of that dogs is what's the plan, if you don't get the money I mean you know.

for 40 odd million is its welcome is needed, we're completely behind it, but if, for whatever reason that money doesn't appear and or if there is delay in the implementation, then we're looking at this pain for for a considerable or considerably longer period if if if that's the issue but you know I think,

As Dover and Folkestone were very much focused on that sort of community impact cell Susan, and I, I think we're gonna co-chair it.

so I'm trusting that all of the sort of technical and, as you know, sort of traffic management type issues will we'll do our best, the the fear with those is something that we haven't quite experienced, which is historically we've been able to manage the fray and hope that the tourists kind of look after themselves if the tourists are now the problem and we can't manage them as Toby said it's fundamentally different so which is why I think we're all slightly worried and slightly scared and planning for it.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:01:28

thank you, thank you, Deputy want to respond to that, yes.

Microphone C - 1:01:31

so we don't get the 45 million we're right behind you on lobbying government for 400 million to really try and solve the problem of 45 million, solves the problem.

They would have to spend a whole lot more doing different interventions to get the same effect right behind Janet Dean.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:01:54

I think that's clear. Thank you. I wanted to ask her Kent County Council representatives if he wanted to respond to anything that

Microphone A - 1:02:02

that's been said so far. Thank you Chair. Yes, a lot of what has just been mentioned by Councillor Harper is is happening. We are working very closely with the Dobbin District Council, they're involved in all of the planning as well. Lessons are learned each time we carry out things. Unfortunately, I don't think it will be able to build a roundabout at samphire Hoe between now and October, but a lot of radical

decisions are being put forward. Bids have been put in to the Department for Transport for a lot of improvements. Unfortunately, if we don't get that money, a lot of those improvements cannot happen, but there is a lot of out of the box thinking going on to really improve the network, improve signing improved CCTV, improve the road network. So those beds are with the Department for Transport. National Highways have put in huge amount of beds really to improve things. The 82 dwelling should have been done years ago. It's not rocket science that that is a key route. Unfortunately, it doesn't meet the criteria that somebody somewhere has, and so we have what we have. But we are working very closely with Dover District Council to really see what can be done with the resources that we have

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:03:20

Thank you, hello threat to the committee at this point, any questions on the contributions so far.

Councillor Butcher

Cllr James Butcher - 1:03:30

Just to say, thank you for Jamie, that was really helpful to hear all of that, and I guess people will be.

Expecting similar related kind of impacts in our district, and maybe this was a question for four officers here, or perhaps we hear about it, but what yeah, I'd like to know what that planning is and the communication plan contingency planning for those those kinds of impacts.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:03:53

I think Kevin we will come to that Councillor Butcher when we get to that part of the presentation, so thanks for flagging.

Councillor McConville.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:04:04

Chair yeah, just picking up on some key things there, but I think that probably the community impact group I'd like to see them take forward yeah, looking at places across the approaches to the port and the tunnel that could be providing additional facilities for bathrooms, drinking water, etc. In the case that there are,

Long extended periods of car car pile up or be very interesting to see if that sort of work is already starting where those potential sites could be to make sure we're offering that level of welfare and

The potential, perhaps, for some sort of key worker routes.

when things go were really bad.

We we have this key workers theme during COVID.

it doesn't seem that outside the realm of possibility for certain people, teachers, nurses, care workers, that sort of thing to have something some sort of identification to say I know the motorways closed, I've got this, let me in I need to get money to get to where I'm going so paycheck, to also to see if there's been any conversation about that. Obviously, agencies like the police would be heavily involved in something like that, but if not, I think there are things I'd like to see the community into impact groups. Sort of worked through and releasing their inner comes

Microphone A - 1:05:32

before Andy steps in on the detail of it, one example is that I was with SECAmb this morning they have a working group looking exactly what's just being talked about, where they're looking at the logistics actually of setting up, for example terminals or they have to keep pace at Ashford, they have a key place at drilling and they have a key place elsewhere have actually setting up so there's a Dover,

Locations focused in locations. So all of that planning is happening now by a lot of organisations, and I was about to answer another point that you just made as well. There, which is totally nurse-led reminders should write these things down should know about the welfare but spaces for welfare so and the welfare of an owner one bit that was on the welfare before I hand over to Andy. One of the bids that we have put into Department for Transport is to have a couple of low key locations on the approach specifically to the port of Dover. We've got another location on the approach to Eurotunnel that could then be used where we could put welfare facilities, so if someone's then queued for hours in an Amazon, they've got a facility to come off and we could put toilets. We could put a boat when whatever, but again until we get funding and we get a patient, but those plans, those requests are in place

Microphone B - 1:06:44

and just one on child welfare, certainly somebody we've been looking at in terms of the type of welfare we offer, how we go about offering that welfare when it is.

be on the carriageway actually in the queue or has an off-site of highway location and

It should probably come as no surprise to anyone in this room that we like to queue and we are very resistant to leaving that queue, even if it is to go and kind of get welfare, so typically now we have to be there, but you have to be queuing for an extended period of time to kind of want to consider that and you know we're not necessarily going to provide welfare potentially everywhere.

It'll be probably focused, given the resources that we have available to us and our capabilities on those locations where people can't help themselves so where they aren't in a kind of passing a Tesco, or have you wears on those motorway areas where they can't easily get off, how do we provide welfare to them and it's something that a driver welfare group is considering considering how we approach the last time the lessons to be learned from that, how we can make improvements. Above all, it's what is reasonable, what is practical and what prioritises the safety of the people in the queue, because the last thing we need is people wandering around the carriageway

When it's not safe to do so, so that's a key consideration, we have to take into account.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:08:05

thank you were fortunate to be.

Cllr Anita Jones - 1:08:13

sorry, Councillor Jones, sorry just follow her on welfare, how about people who are disabled or less able to get out of their cars, how are we gonna cope and obviously if there'd been sat in traffic for longer that might not certain health conditions that might be a problem or

Microphone B - 1:08:25

communications, so a lot of it is around making sure that people come prepared for extended periods of queuing people with medication, making sure they have sufficient in the car.

People travelling with babies and young children, making sure they have sufficient supplies for them.

People who have a disabilities, making sure they are aware of what their needs are and how they can be met.

One of this kind of picks up life views before is people who needs.

her particular access to her toilet facilities, and there are websites and apps that can signpost people to the facilities they need.

In the local area.

So that's another consideration from a health perspective, the NHS did a lot of work around EU exit using her NHS 1 1 1, so traditionally when you call NHS one one, one, you are in a single location, you're not travelling anywhere, you're generally at home or a place you're staying at so it wasn't set up to deal with the travelling public and answering.

kind of non-emergency health radicals from queues.

so again, the NHS has done a lot of work around that and that will be revisited and refreshed for her this this time as well.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:09:44

A good question, thank you, Councillor Jones, where I was about saying that we are very fortunate to be joined by other contributors from our Parish and Town Councils this evening, so we've Christians and hear from Hawkinge Town Council and John Neill from Newington and Pine Parish Councils I'd like to invite them now to give a contribution.

Microphone G - 1:10:23

OK thanks, Chair thanks for inviting me, so we worked out some references to the community impact and I've got a whole load more from our area, which been build on what Jim has already said, I do have an understanding of peaks and troughs of traffic so there was 24 years at Eurotunnel before I retired.

So I would like to highlight the huge impact on our local community in Hull Kinch and surrounding villages of a tactic when Dover Tap is in force. This is the closure of the coastbound round hills tunnel diversion of old traffic of the M 20 at junction 13 the immediate effects of closing the tunnel and diverting the traffic of the traffic queue from junction 13 along Church Avenue up Hawkinge Hill to the roundabouts at the bottom of Spitfire Way and then down the slip road back onto the A 20 remember that two lanes of traffic are now forced to use a single lane except for going up the hill and then back to one lane.

Traffic static until the space to enter the A 20 at the end of the Taku. This creates a one-way valve which allows traffic to go from Hawkins to Folkestone but not to get back roads in Folkestone are quickly gridlocked and the blockage spreads outwards, passenger traffics mixed with freight and suffers the same delay. Lorries sometimes stop on the Spitfire Way roundabout and blocked traffic in the focus and direction which doubles the problem. So we'd like to understand why pop traffic can't be held at junction 13 and drip-fed up the A 20 when the space at the end of the tap queue

So that local traffic could then still use the usual routes and the Round Hill tunnel.

When the coastbound tunnels closed local traffic has moved to diversion routes through outcome.

Catching all Lyminge Caple pain in Newington, sometimes on single track roads. With short passing spaces, you can imagine the chaos caused by convoys of cars and sometimes even optics and coaches on these with restricted roads. The number 16 bus from folks into Canterbury is diverted up Stone Street or via Dover and misses out. Hawkinge Densole Swingfield and Denton the Battle of Britain Museum in Hawkinge closes for the winter and reopens at Easter. Last year, though, visitor numbers at Easter were down by a half to two thirds. Reducing income from entrance charges numbers were still down even after roads had cleared due to adverse publicity, and the perception that East Kent was shut. Another result is that many Southeastern train crew conductors managers and drivers struggled to get to their depot in Dover. This has an ongoing impact in that trains are cancelled or significantly delayed from Dover, obviously delaying passengers all the way down the line. A 15 minute journey from Hawkinge can take up to two hours. I asked on social media at Hawkinge residents, what the impact of tunnel closures is on them and is some examples we don't go out, it's worse than COVID, at least then we could get to the supermarket and that was from several people, my son works at Dover, Western Docks in a 10 minute journey can take an hour

Worries are getting our secondary aged children down to school and back to fear that emergency services will not get to the town in an emergency. My son had to walk from folks into Hawkings because the buses couldn't move care is being able to get to us in Hawkinge for our disabled daughter so we can get to work us being unable to get home from work to take over from the carer and then the carer and not being able to reach the next client. I live at the bottom of Hawkins Hill, it's like a car park here every time can't get in or out or children is not one that you might not have thought, so the church minister said horses have been causing the traffic

as they try to make their way to Hawkinge Crematorium, most of the funeral directors who use it and basting folks Norheim, so it needs to come up the road that gets blocked. It also has an impact on those trying to get to the funeral of loved ones. I'm sure that Natalie in Dublin know of colleagues who were late for work so it's not been an isolated incident going on back only a few years we've got closures in 2020 September and Christmas Christmas, 21 2022 January, March May and the famous July

Following this extended closure, a special meeting of this committee with guests from numerous agencies was held on the 7th of February last year, I understood that the tunnels closure tactic was to be discussed, but there's no mention of it in the minutes.

Despite the meeting with closures since then Easter, July, November and Christmas last year, fortunately we didn't have a closure this Easter, but we don't know if that was good fortune or inherit improved planning Toby you said last May that Brock should stop tap filling up into the tunnel but you only said that it was significantly reduce the likelihood of the tunnel needing to be closed so we don't know if the plans being abandoned or not the whole Kinch resident had this reply from the national highways business services coordinator in January this year the Roundhill tunnel mega clubs as part of operation tap if high levels of tourists and and freight traffic pose a risk of congestion at the tunnel.

Traffics held on the m 20 until it's deemed safe to let traffic fluffy flow through safely, this is a safety measure to prevent traffic from queuing or becoming stationary within the tunnel.

well, that's statements, incorrect and suggests that someone in Guildford doesn't understand the situation. Traffic is not held, it's diverted off, so the reply goes on. Although there's no plant changes to the management of the Round Hill tunnel during operations, HAP will continue to work as part of the K ref partnership to review how it can be improved during busy periods at the pals' doper, nor also actively working with co Aref to manage the changes under others, which, so I'm paraphrasing that we've done that. The residents of Hawkinge and surrounding villages feel that the impacts of tunnel closures are not recognised by those in charge of traffic or if they are, they're ignored. Our main source of information is Facebook. Facebook, as Hawkins Town Council, gets no direct information on predicted peaks. Measures in place possible risks, etc

so can someone please confirm that an alternative plan to closing the tunnel and diverting the traffic off is in place, and that will be better informed in future?

Thank you.

Thank you, Chris John, do you want to?

just to add to what is being said, my my house is the nearest house to the tunnel to the tunnel entrance, and until recently I had two boys going to school at Loughborough College, so when there was traffic I was called both ends and spent many hours sitting charity the boys but I wasn't forced to school.

Newington and paying Parish.

the tunnel was part of our parish,

and we have great relationships.

A lot of the problems that have already been spoken about the issues are spoken to many neighbours and parishioners about the problems that were had over several weekends.

I walked down and stood looking at the M 20 in a complete nightmare that was there, my wife was stuck in traffic coming off junction, 11 A for over six hours, she couldn't leave the car, she asked the place if she could leave the car and was told now and it's literally a five minute walk from from there to our house she was stuck behind.

Minibus of 8 disabled young children in the bus and they were having a bit of a nightmare. Some of them wanted to go to toilet, they didn't have sufficient drinking water on board are forced to be a wife, had some so other people were helping as well, but nothing's been spoken about which has surprised me, is. The total lack of police presence in the area at the actual tunnel entrance is quite often in place, and I know you've got your own force that look after that, but around the area Upper Bar Grove, which comes from the A 20 going into high, that was absolutely chock-a-block.

I have a motorbike and I managed to get down part of the way.

along and there was a couple of cars were fight, we're fighting the police were called, but of course the police said they couldn't get there.

It is just a total I didn't see any other, apart from the entrance and I travelled all round the area I didn't see any place whatsoever.

and surely on a weekend I know it was particularly bad, but it has happened on more than one occasion, we could perhaps have a few bobbies on foot patrolling and give it a bit of more support to people who are stuck with, particularly with kids and the other thing where I was going to mention which has already been mentioned but I was watching the number of kids playing football in the them 20 which is a bit of thought I'd never see.

but again, had it been placed there, I understand, if farmers were stuck in their cars for hours appalling kids gonna get out and stretch their legs, but it just didn't look very safe and playing football in the them 20. These are just a few of the problems that are personally seen and people have spoken to me about, and thank you very much for inviting me. Thank you very much. Thank you. Both painted really vivid

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:20:29

pictures of the problems that people have been experiencing. I know Toby you were keen to come in in response to some of the points that were made. Thank you Chair. I won't go into all of it, but what I'd

Microphone A - 1:20:39

suggest initially is to actually come out and have a specific meeting with yourselves listened to those points rather than going through every individual point now

But one point there was to do with Roundhill tunnel this Easter, it wasn't a fluke, a lot of work went internet to really make sure the them Susan will remember my e-mails to them and saying they're about to close it now. They're not closing it, they're not there to close it, they're not, because we did everything possible to make sure that national highways didn't close that tunnel and it worked this time round, so it is possible, but it still cannot be guaranteed. Unfortunately, you mentioned the difference. I mean the theory

Is that, yes, everything held in broke will stop tap from filling up, unfortunately it's all the gaps in between so people, leaving stop 24 people, leaving everything else so, and sometimes if the issue is at the Port of Dover, we don't want to penalise Eurotunnel freight that could run freely.

And truck drivers are harmful buggers at times they'll think all the original queues moving freely, will go down, that queue and then jump and down and they join, so there's a lot of work going on.

We've had meeting specifically with National Highways and Kent police to really look at the diversion route. You refer to to say actually what can be done. Currently, National Highways state categorically. We cannot have stationary traffic in Round Hill tunnel if there is going to be stationary traffic. We have to close it on safety purposes. Part of the bid I referred to earlier on that they've put into D F T is to put things in place that they could then do that safely, but again that won't be in place as yet. So what I'd suggest, as I say, is that I'll I'll contact you directly, we'll come out and sit down to you to see how we can create that communication specifically for yourselves listened to your points as the locals and actually make sure see what we can do. We won't fix, we do not have that magic wand to fix everything. Certainly if I did, I'd be a very rich person, but we'll come out and talk to you about thank you,

It is very helpful, thank you.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:22:53

Will just I'll just see if any members of the committee wants to make any comments or ask any questions at this point before we move on to our final presentation, Councillor Buchanan.

Cllr James Butcher - 1:23:04

yeah, it's just to pick up on Christopher doubt that response from National Highways, asserting that traffic was going to be held on the motorway, which is, I think, Chris the solution you've been advocating sets out how come that doesn't happen if National Highways is

Microphone A - 1:23:20

suggesting, I think, as he alluded to, it's probably someone that doesn't fully understand the area, one of the problems that if you then only held them on the them 20 and didn't allow them off, it would be very soon backing up towards junction 11 A as well, so it's getting that balance

Of the different impacts. Everything has a knock-on effect, you solve one problem, we create another, it is this horrible monster that keeps growing. So yes, you could hold them only on the 20 June block of junction 12 junction 11, A et cetera, and it can back up, so it's it's working almost ideally, as I say, is to come up with something so they can queue through the tunnel is one and keep them moving.

there are at Radix is above the tunnel, which said why not use those and release the trouble is, you've got to have someone enforcing it because unless you've got that enforcement, the truck travellers ignore it the way that's built on the viaduct there isn't anywhere to put those people to enforce it so like I say there are a lot of discussions ongoing but we're not there yet.

Cllr James Butcher - 1:24:25

and just to appreciate your offer to meet to meet with colleagues from the town and parish councils. That's that's really helpful, and the other point that was made by John was about the police and I just wonder what their episode were missing presence from today, and I just

Microphone A - 1:24:39

wondered about that. I can. I did actually write a note on that and I totally forgot it can't actually directly respond on behalf of the police, but the key issue is again, they have very limited resource, whether they're dealing with burglaries, whether they're dealing with traffic management, whatever they're dealing with everything. So that is one of the key issues that it would be great to have hundreds of police officers that could help all of this, but unfortunately they're not. There

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:25:03

I do understand they're involved in the discussions and perhaps will touch on that in our next presentation, which I will move on to now if everyone's comfortable with that, so we have dealt them with, as the control centre and resilience lead specialist for votes in Hive District Council a long title day.

Mrs Dee Elson - 1:25:52

So, as Councillor Davidson said under Yeltsin, I'm the I've been emergency planning officer for the Council for seven years, so I've been involved in quite a lot of issues in the district over that time.

we've kind of done it, I've done the presentation in a different way, as in what we're doing to prepare for the yes and the impact on the authority in the district I can move on, it's not playing much slideshow with it.

I say that as Andrew and Andy sorry, no Andrew Andy said, were involved in lots of meetings that Kent resilience forum are taking are doing.

We co-chairing the community impact Greatwood Dover, that's just had its initial meeting, so it's in its infancy at the moment, the tactical coordination group is held every two weeks, that's where all key organisations, including place see Cam via, are included in that as well.

And then there's the strategic coordination group, which is monthly, that also includes all key partners, but hire people, not me, there's the driver welfare group, which is in its infancy as well at the moment we've talked about what's happened, it bricks the Brexit issues how we can try and alleviate some of those.

That's all that's being co-ordinated by Kent resilience forum.

KCC Asher-Smith KC yeah.

we've got an internal yes, meeting going on, which is myself Susan Andy Ewan and comes.

Where with trying to pull a plan together, which is really difficult when we don't have dates and don't really have a lot of information, I knew from what we learn in Brexit.

And also becomes manager is part of the kings come sale that she's attending, is that monthly year or monthly, so that will make sure that there's a joined-up response to communication across all of the organisations.

Say?

If you can't read it.

what's happening in Folkestone Hyde, so we're going to explain the yes to allow residents and businesses as we get closer to at the time.

we're going to provide advice how the District compare can prepare for a yes.

And work with local town councils and Districts because they're in that area, they if we have got gridlock on the roads they will be able to help and identified more vulnerable people that need help and hopefully prepare for that.

the government for gathering information on potential community impacts and, as I say, that is all from what we learn from Brexit.

we encouraging the development of business continuity plans and updating the Council's business continuity plans. We already have these in place. We're just making sure that they are up to date and they will take into account e es and the potential impact of that we've created a specific e-mail address so that you can put that out to the general public is to gather intimate information and if you need anything from us, it's monitored by myself and my team, they

Team leader, so, but we will use that more as we go into a yes to gather information and ask people to send in more about community impacts so that we can raise that through tactical within strategic and we're going to raise awareness, but there's a very raising awareness of the role on council in emergency by promoting the LGA accounts to go to civil emergencies.

you've uploaded this haven't used, so that PR, the Councillors, can be attached to the minute okay, yeah, so that link there is the LGA guidance for you, and we're also gonna internally do further training.

For staff and councillors on emergency planning and your role in that emergency and will say there is a multi-agency exercise taking place at the beginning of July, which will be taking part in, and all the learnings will be using to.

Make our plans.

in questions.

thanks to the

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:30:44

I think that we are absorbing what you what you've said there, you want to come into effect today for for leading on that appreciated and we are, I think, there's a council really well served with having De and her expertise, she's got very good connections in with us with our partners, so thanks to you for that, hopefully you'll have seen that I would describe it at the beginning of the detailed planning phase and thank you for the important. It's quite quite sobering, isn't it and are quite frightening actually, when you think about the extent of the issues that we need to deal with with our partners, so between now and as we go forward, we've these outlined the regular meetings. What course she didn't say is when there are issues, some of those groups meet two or three four times a day

you know, there's a relatively regular cycle, sometimes I can spend most of my day on the phone with or in groups with Toby and others, and one of the big reflections from the emergencies and the challenges we've had in the past is the importance of real-time intelligence and that is really where local ward members really come into their own and hence setting up the dedicated e-mail.

now so that we can get into the rhythm and also we can make sure that Members know about that e-mail because whenever we are stood up and there's a response which of course we are all seeking to try and rasp avoid response from being stood up, but when there is there is always the

Sit rip, which is you know what is going on locally, what is a local real-time intelligence, so for us that absolute is is one of the most critical roles during an emergency or times of challenges that Members can play, and of course it's then more or more usual after the emergency where members come into their own in terms of the rebuilding and recovering but certainly that would be.

Something that, as we go through the coming few months and we have more opportunity to talk to you and other Members across the Council, we will be talking more detailed about actually how how best that can be or supporting the the effort and the endeavour for us so hopefully that background reading that will circulate is a helpful precursor to more and more detailed discussions with d myself Andy and ennui and hopefully that's helpful or,

Thanks very much. I think you know that it is quite overwhelming. Isn't it? In terms of the the volume of points that have been raised this evening, Councillor Powell raised the point about what we want to come out of this meeting this evening, so I think maybe if we just open the floor now, if any of our guests or contributors this evening have particular things that they would want us to be aware of or take away from this or suggestions that would be useful to hear and also committee members if you've got points, you want to make your suggestions at this stage, as might be a good time to kind of try and pull some of that together.

Cllr Anita Jones - 1:33:51

Who would like to be first Councillor Jones, I think, from the council's point of view, we need to produce a leaflet or a social media a very detailed.

publication, which we can share on social media and perhaps send round to every house in the district outlining a little bit like they did with COVID, so the steps that you should take, so it's a bit like an emergency plan so that people aren't panicking in advance and worrying about what might happen but outlining the steps that have been taken but the port at the Eurotunnel and then obviously what steps KCC are taking and the District Council.

I think there'd be a really positive step forward, otherwise there will be all kinds of stories floating around on social media and worries, and we don't want that to happen.

Councillor Hales,

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:34:39

I agree with what has just been said, but it's a fine line between

Councillor Tony Hills - 1:34:42

panicking communities and informing communities, I'd like to see a countdown if the date is the 6th of October it's so many days ago and you count down each day and you send out regular updates on social media and tell people what's being done because they assume nothing's been done, but there is not going to be done by all the organisations which are a tough, tough task and they need to be respected for that, so I think that communication is very important on a countdown basis, so you can build a bit of pressure upgrades and a date and everything I would say you could do already nothing thing I was going to say whilst we should put pressure on our MPs.

This is a government decision against Spring more money, and the the MP should be made promise, Councillor, I'd like to see that they need for their trust, they pull their finger out and get behind this council and its problem and see if we can find some solution going forward.

thank you, ancestors I say thanks to everybody and I nearly got an awful lot of work on their hands, but we will get there thanks

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:35:50

Councillor Hills and he wants to come in and then Toby yeah. Thank

Mrs Dee Elson - 1:35:55

you, Councillor Hills, and just to pick up on your point in the internal meetings we've had. We are going to do some kind of publication, but the actual 6th of October isn't set in stone yet, so we're waiting until the August date when we know if it moves or not moves, and then we will send something out. As you said, it is scaremongering, or it's people preparing, say, yeah, so we're waiting until that that happens, and then I think as a as organisations through the Kent and Medway resilience forum, we're gonna take a more consistent approach and we're probably all we'll send out reasonably. The same comes about people being prepared

but will have a focus and an HIV spin on it as well, so yeah, so we're waiting into August basically to, because if we send it now, then people will get scared.

Microphone A - 1:36:45

Just to be a scaremonger, it was 105

as 165 days only until the 6th of October.

Councillor Tony Hills - 1:36:58

just say I've got total faith in Toby so loud, and I was sure the day after will say yeah, it all went fine because of Toby.

I'm planning months of leave.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:37:12

So good Natalie did you want to come back in on anything?

Microphone C - 1:37:17

The only thing I suppose we've not really touched on is the communication side of it.

As I've already already touched on, we are a commercial business, we don't want to completely put customers off travelling this summer and we don't have the final ruling from the EU, yes, it's very difficult to communicate to customers when we don't really know what we can and can't say yet so our plan is get somewhere out of the way, hopefully we have a bit more clarity from the EU by them and then we can start on our commerce plan specifically to obviously our customers.

After the Olympics here.

No guys thanks for having us out, I mean, I'll tell you what, we're we've been knocking our socks off, trying to get some things done, so that we can get things in place, I was talking with my my chief operations officer, I talked to her probably daily about yes, and we both reckon that we're probably

Had been more than me, spending half to three quarters of our time just on this topic, and that's how important it is to get it right.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:38:21

Councillor Comfort.

Thanks.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:38:25

Just come back to just the conversation earlier from from yourself, from your general report was I brought in, you said you would have, with the chaos of 52 kiosks was at 53 53 and an officer could monitor for its 103 106 kiosks, but 53 53 parts per 100 s OK and then,

and an officer can monitor for at a time, and I assume that those officers are currently in place and that there will be additional officers they have started recruiting and co French have started recruiting for that already. But yes, they are aware of the demand that will need and that the work will there be a similar amount of increase in French officers at the Port of Dover, or that's fair to say as well, yeah, I mean this, we're in the same boat, so we're putting all of our notice, I said said, Bowden, not true,

there were the same book because the police are frontier, they know what the resourcing demands are and they've got to produce the resources, we also have a similar quantity of so-called agents, basically people that are employed either by the by Eurotunnel or by ourselves to operate these things under police or frontier supervision OK, thank you and I guess in terms of,

next steps.

I think that the most important thing for us as a Council is is really sort of looking at that community impact the business impact and the welfare of our residents, and also the residents that are passing through our districts.

I said I think it's essential that something comes back to this Committee prior to the implementation particularly quite like to see any minute actions or recommendations that come out of the Community impact Group moving forward just to see you know the work that's been done obviously to set you know it's quite a quite a new thing that starting so be patient to see where that body has as got to in you know the next six months say and and obviously just to sort of make sure that you mentioned our business continuity plans they are the they are updated with everything that we expect to see with regards to the ES being implemented and perhaps any you know update on conversations with parish councils or cow perhaps I could be part of a future agenda for the joint parish Committee I think that'd be very valuable for their app for the council

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:41:00

3 helpful thank you Councillor Conville and I believe it is in the plan for it to be part of the agenda for one of those meetings in future Councillor Butcher yes just to build on that and I wonder if

Cllr James Butcher - 1:41:12

there's are also more direct contact with communities that are particularly affected and just think about now we've heard from Christen John and the excise Chris when through to consult with people in his community and all that kind of detail feedback that seems to me to be absolutely invaluable and just yeah pinched nerve that if there can be a more direct connection with those Tanner parish councils that are particularly affected

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:41:39

I'm be told us not a problem so that's and taking that any other comments or suggestions at this point committee members or guests

no OK well I think Councillor McConville it's made a suggestion that this issue comes back to the Committee prior to implementation including feedback from the Community impact Group and the business the updating of business continuity plans is of committee members in agreement with that that would be I think really helpful thing to organise so we can bear in mind for the forward plan for the Committee for next year but I just want to say thank you very much to all our guests who comes evening giving up such time to talk with us about their experiences and the plans and all the work that you are all doing which is huge clearly from the presentation she given the evening so thank you very much for sharing that with the Committee we're going to have a 5 minute break just while are our guests are able to leave so if Members want to take Viking it break please do thank you

5 KRF Planning - EU Entry / Exit System (ESS)

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:43:06

restart the meeting this evening and we're moving to another important item which is the motion from council which considers the potential impact for the district of Kent County Council's decision to end its accommodation and support provision for care leavers once they reach the age of 19 and I think we're gonna have an introduction on the item yeah thanks Adrian

Microphone D - 1:43:39

as cause the Davison as just at the the report considers the impacts of the decision by KCC to end is accommodation support services for care leavers in the in the county once they reach the age of 90 it also considers the potential solutions and responses for the council

I housing options service and the Council of January recognises the concerns that these changes will have for the young people affected the report also follows the motion by the council on 27 November last year in response to to visit these issues I'm happy to answer any questions on the report thank you thank you very much I'll open it to the Committee

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:44:29

Councillor McConville

this

6 Motion from Council (29/11/2023)

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:44:37

tried to to highlight this thanks very much for the report and for the for the opportunity to to to bring it to the Committee for a bit more of a discussion largely the when the motion was put to Council it was it was part of a wider coordinated effort across many Kent or thorough Kent Districts just to try and put that pressure on KCC to make KCC aware that you know this this you know this does have a have a massive impact very disappointing that that no response has been received from KCC.

colleagues in Canterbury.

was in discussion, I was hoping that Alan the leader of Canterbury council might be able to pop in and share some of their concerns with us as well, but unfortunately he wasn't able to make it, but he again was very disappointed that his response from KCC,

As if to quote him, so we had a very neutral letter back from KCC, but no commitments.

So I mean.

It's it's very disappointing that such an important issue, where you think there is going to be a change, you think people would be able to get round the table and work out a solution for the benefit of the people that are going to be massively impacted by this and and the main the main person or the main organisation is not really engaging.

I don't know what we can do as a Council further or again with with all the other district councils that are going to be affected by this, to try and.

change that changed that narrative from KCC. Maybe they feel that it's just too too far down the line for them to for it to be a big issue, and I know they've got to probably bigger plans afoot for further cost, shunting exercises to try and put more of the financial burden away from them and onto district councils. But I would be quite interested to hear what other Members think that we could do, especially somewhere KCC colleagues, to try and really really push this issue. I mean if we look at their the estimated impacts of around 200,000, I mean that's still very significant for this Council.

Do you think of Canterbury, I mean there?

Their estimates are well over two to two and a half million a year that is, there is massive for small councils in this area.

But again, not really any any solutions, but.

I think it's something we need to continue monitoring, it'd be good to start getting data now.

These these these young people, now that are currently on track to to come into that system.

just to try and just to try and get as much data as we can as to what what they're doing in the era within within their lives, if they are likely to stay here or if they're likely to, if they think they're likely to be somewhere else by 19,

Good to have a coordinated sort of system within Kent that everyone knows they've got as much data as they can so they can they can prepare as best they can.

Both financially direct financially in terms of the housing costs, but also the all the all, the the associated things that will have to indefinitely come into play, to provide care and support for at least these young people that are going to be affected thanks.

Councillor Chapman.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:48:15

I mean, I don't know where to start with this, I'm so absolutely

Cllr Bridget Chapman - 1:48:21

furious about it care leavers by their by definition, some of the most vulnerable people in our community and to basically abandon them like this is is quite disgraceful, the blame cannot lie solely that kcc's door but also very much at the door of central government that have forced councils into this position.

It is an absolute false economy because the costs will be so much greater further down the line, because these are such a vulnerable young people.

I thank you for the report, it's it's thorough, I don't understand the the risk assessment and particularly the likelihood column.

increased homelessness presentation to the Council medium.

I mean, I just can't see how that is medium budgetary impacts medium increased risk of vulnerable young people not receiving the specialist help they need medium, I mean, if you could talk me through it, I'd be grateful because I don't really understand how those a medium,

I think for us at the moment niches is the uncertainty we've provided

Microphone D - 1:49:32

some information on on the potential numbers of young people. We don't know exactly where those young people may go going forwards. Some may approach other councils in Kent. Young people can actually go to any counts because they're careful by the council, they can actually approach any of the councils in Kent, so we're not exactly sure when those people may or whether they may actually approach us, we're not sure on the timescales, but clearly what we try to do within that assessment is showed. The impact could be very serious, but we don't fully know the impact of this at this time. that's that's why we suggested that the likelihood was medium at this time.

It could it could increase or decrease dependent absolutely that that would change no, and that's going to be part of our monitoring process, obviously, as we get more information and more certainty than, we will need to bring that information to members going forward, thank you I can see that it's a very difficult position to ascertain and I appreciate your answer on that. Thank you.

Cllr Bridget Chapman - 1:50:37

Councillor Alan Martin, thank you, obviously whenever any things

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:50:45

withdrawn or reduced it, it's it's really difficult, I guess, just

Cllr Alan Martin - 1:50:49

trying to get my head around the impacted as well, so it wasn't.

It wasn't such that the the support previously given was completely open-ended, it only went to the age of 21, so what we're talking about here is a reduction from 21 to 19, which absolutely has an impact, but I guess I'm keen to better understand what currently happens at 21 and what sort of support happens as people trans transition because presumably,

Not everyone necessarily would need support at that stage and whilst admittedly it's coming two years earlier than it was previously, maybe not not maybe not everything's lost, but I don't really understand the the the process and the situation well enough to to judge.

However, at the moment of it, you've mentioned, obviously 21 clients

Microphone D - 1:51:43

would get some support for that longer period of time, some of those clients going forward would have had assistance from KCC to access other accommodation solutions.

They might may have approached district councils across the counts across the county for for help.

For example, assistance with rent deposits, et cetera, to try and access independent accommodation in the in the private rented sector, and they might join council waiting lists across the county as well with the potential to access affordable rented housing across the county, so it was happened on a more gradual basis, I think it's fair to say,

Some of those individuals on reaching 21 year w certainly would have been in the position where they may have been able to solve their housing situation itself directly.

Thank you, yeah, I guess building on that as it is, is there are any

Cllr Alan Martin - 1:52:36

more colour you can provide around how that kind of sort of slopes of, so presumably as people get older or options come up, people can find support in other areas, people may be in some instances no longer need support which has been interesting to see how that kind of runs of overnight over that sort of age group.

I'm happy to go away from the meeting to put together some more detail from our own information and perhaps we can get some more information

Microphone D - 1:53:03

from from social services as well.

To try and provide a clear picture on perhaps some of the past activity and what might happen going forward as well, that would be helpful.

Great thank you again.

Councillor Shannon were just to come back on Councillor Martin's

Cllr Alan Martin - 1:53:22

Cllr Bridget Chapman - 1:53:23

point, this is happening against a background of massively increased housing costs motion.

Greatly reduced amount of housing is accessible to these young people. The housing allowance is 282 pounds and several years ago that might have got us a room in a shared house, but it won't touch the sides now, so if it's you know it's happening against that kind of a background and there's gonna be a much greater need, not it's not going to fall off it's because it's gonna get it's gonna get worse

Thank you counselling, thank for mixed report, it was very well put

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:53:58

Microphone Thirteen - 1:54:02

together and I'll also highlights what we all do touched on on 3.4 3, point five-year children but other agencies moving people forward, we resistance welfare agencies mean you all spoke about social services, are you also thinking about so outside charities and things in work and with them?

Microphone D - 1:54:22

Absolutely, yes, and other agencies around the centre locally and more widely will work with as many partners as we can, obviously working with other councils as well across the county, to try and look for other solutions as well going forward, but

the options are limited, and I have to say you know the support, and this will be young people going into private rented accommodation Councillor conversation without support that they may have had in the past. We can't entirely make up for all of those the shortfalls that we're going to see going forward, it's fair to say yes, of course it's already a problem with accommodation near here anyway, which will we're aware of

Microphone Thirteen - 1:55:00

and also, obviously local cherishes of things also struggled because KCC cut their funding well sits under Serco double-edged sword

yeah thank you for that

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:55:19

Councillor Belcher just talks about officers will continue to monitor

Cllr James Butcher - 1:55:22

an update members as any further issues arise so cause I guess what we're getting here is we're being alerted to a problem and the guests will have to wait and see how this actually transpire so what what what's the plan for updating does that come back to this Committee or elsewhere or

and what we obviously monitor homelessness generally across the

Microphone D - 1:55:41

district we provide a suite of indicators on on presentations etc. so that was certainly pick up on increases in numbers of young people approaching our Housing option Service but certainly I I'm I'm happy to bring more information back to this Committee as and when as I mentioned

the reports are followed that the motion from Councillor back in November last year so obviously as as the Group C fit now we'll bring that information back to you is that something that committee would like to see yeah I'm seeing nods OK that be helpful thank you I think

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:56:17

is is their merit in a further follow up to Casey see in terms of not having had a response and what there can be kind of engagement with them and also just on the figures that have been shared 39 Kelly visited 16 to 21 is there are a kind of more detailed breakdown of that so you can really get a sense of who's coming up to the age at which they might need some support over the next one to three years so we can really focus on on those individuals

Microphone D - 1:56:50

hippy above that was certainly part of our monitoring process officers overseas speaking with KCC social services on an ongoing basis that there's more on a case-by-case basis I have to say but not that and county councils across across the County the District's have obviously voice their concerns jointly as part of the Kent Housing Group to KCC as well so that in their have there have been processes put in place beyond beyond that motion itself as well so but yam send it was certainly happy to pick up on all those issues as part of that reporting process going forward

thank you I think Councillor McConville is just ahead of Councillor Hills OK Councillor Hills

if I can give any help my county role to officers to facilitate reaction from certain Council officers at Kent I'm I'm there to be used thank you Councillor health Councillor M Convery thank you and thank you for everyone's

input into this I think I think we'll our Council

or does very well with regards to to people in care to my mind where the only council in the in all of Kent that offers council tax relief to care leavers up to the age of 25 something again that was put pressure on for two for KCC some time ago sorry I'd really like to

to think that we do everything we possibly can within out within our means 2 you know took to make to make this this transition if that's what it is as best we can I do have some concerns largely just to do with the allocations of things like that and and if there's been any thick current if the building thinking in terms of what might happen when some of these young people

to approach the Council and I know the council currently sense people out of district usually larger families because we don't have any availability specially 3 4 bed that sort of thing but you know if if

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:59:02

there be any sort of thinking of any sort of special provision especially for careleavers possibly with mental health issues and various other issues who were who have cut by have quite strong ties to that the local area just to try and keep them in the local area and again

what care leavers possibly you mentioned it in the report may have more complex needs you know our do do we have any sort of scope or capacity for places accommodation the mightn't disabled access and that in those sorts of things be good to be to just get that our thinking quite early on

to see you know what what possible scenarios might arise at when we start getting some of these when we stuck in some of these approaches I know we'll are potentially look at housing allocations

over over the next 12 months so be something to possibly think about when that comes to this committee as well

Microphone D - 2:00:12

Yeah yeah, we certainly worked with a range of providers and districts, we have our own housing stock, we have our housing association partners and obviously we need we do, and we will continue to work closely with private sector landlords as well to encourage them to make their accommodation available to to these clients.

Going forward and, of course, wider homeless clients as well.

That, whereas we we do our best to accommodate people in this district, the accommodation supply is is limited.

and certainly we we would do all that we can, where we were, unfortunately, we may be forced to temporarily place people outside of the district, we do all that we can to move people back as quickly as possible, you know, we recognise this support networks are in this area and it's important that that we we bring those back together as quickly as possible.

But so you know we certainly can't accommodate everyone within the social sector, and it's gonna be vital going forward that we maintain those links with private sector landlords and do all that we can to support these young people affected.

thanks Adrian, I think the housing allocation and policy isn't

Cllr Laura Davison - 2:01:21

formally on the programme of the Committee for next year, but perhaps if the Cabinet Member is coming in front of the committee and then that's something that we could include an update from the Cabinet Member and have the opportunity to to ask questions about then I'm seeing notes from the Cabinet Member who is with us this evening so she wants to come in Rebecca thank you.

yeah, so several things just wanted to thank Adrian for the report and

Cllr Rebecca Shoob - 2:01:49

just want to really stress the the the really good work that the Adrian and the Team Housing options team in particular does, I know, works really hard on the prevention side of things and I know the team is you know passionate and dedicated the to that that work.

Ultimately, this all comes back to yeah, cuts, cuts, cuts over 14 years and reaping the yeah we're seeing what that has resulted in.

and this is one one particular group of very, very vulnerable, extremely young people and I'm sure most of us I would hope you know, when we were that age had a huge support that we could family friends, that we could rely on.

So yeah, this is a particularly vulnerable group, but obviously the cuts have affected all sorts of different different groups so yeah, I would like to hope that some you know some of that can be turned around, but it's not, it's gonna take a long time for for the damage to to be repaired.

So yeah, and are allocations of fear, is something that's on the agenda, and definitely this group of people with we need to certainly think about how our allocations policy caters for them yeah so thanks against the team and thanks to the Committee for discussing this,

Thank you, Councillor Shoom.

Cllr Laura Davison - 2:03:29

are there any other comments on this item, no OK, the recommendations are in front of us to receive and note the report, and to comment on the points set out in the report which we have done, and I think we've agreed that we would want to see this come back to the committee.

once more detail is known and things have developed in due course, so can I see a proposal for those recommendations?

Councillor McConville and a seconder Councillor Butcher, and is that agreed?

Thank you, colleagues.

OK, we are moving on to our next item.

7 Overview and Scrutiny Forward Plan 24/25

Which is the Forward Plan for the Overview and Scrutiny Committee for the 24 25 yeah and the recommendations are to receive and note the report and to adopt and implement the scrutiny work programme, which is set out in the report and to note paragraph 1.4 of the report which I can just highlight to colleagues is that if we approved the work plan then will need to consider the Chair and the Vice Chair of the Committee will need to consider alongside officers the desired outcome and scope for the items detailed within the scrutiny work plan which essentially will mean further conversations about what the focus of those items should be with input and feedback from the Committee.

and I have also officers in that regard,

I mean deep, do you want to speak to the

I think you've covered it very very well Cherry you've done my job for

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 2:05:13

me very very little to add just to say that on page 36 onwards page 36 37 38 you'll seen in the list of topics that you have all selected as a committee

do you understand Chair that there are some additional items and perhaps Members would be kind enough to confirm the position such as the s item to be added as a reserve item and the corporate plan to be moved for consideration as one of the main items so nothing more to add other than what the Chair has said and councillors are asked to confirm that points regarding E S S and the corporate plan please and to receive and note the recommendations on page 35 thank you

thank you yes just to pick up on that point the discussion that we've

Cllr Laura Davison - 2:06:13

had as a committee is that because we have discussed the I s implementation this evening and it did appear on the Forward Plan as an item for next year that it makes sense to put the E S item into the reserve part of the programme for revisiting later in the year as we've discussed in the first part of the meeting and therefore free up a space for the next item down on the list which is in the reserve section at the moment which is the corporate plan consultation responses which the Committee felt it was important was included in the plan for the forthcoming year so that's the amendment to the documentation that's in front of us and that would be reflected in works goes forward to full Council at the Annual Meeting to to review in conjunction with everything else that we'll be doing at that meeting so that that is the understood position so that's come through from are from our discussions as a committee so we can kind of collectively just a firm that's what we would we would want to do then that's fine other any comments Councillor McConville

Cllr Connor McConville - 2:07:28

future yes largely largely think the list is is is pretty much where it needs to be in terms of what we need to to look at over the next year the UK S B F in the R I P F that the re the rural funded the shared prosperity Fund did come to the Finance Sub-Committee so I think it's reasonable for for that item to continue but to to obviously come back to the Sub-Committee as the Sub-Committee did ask for some further feedback from the from those works in due course and potentially the opportunity asylum seems very much finance spaced so there I think there could be the potential for that item to to go to the to the Sub-Committee so we're still we're still obviously scrutinising as much and pap similar to be we remember we had one sub-committee where all committee members could be invited so perhaps that could be that one meeting of the next year I think that I think that meeting that we had

where are the other members of the Committee were invited I worked quite well

thank you that some good suggestions for filling up the work programme for the Sub-Committee and get this vexed items under the radar that

Cllr Laura Davison - 2:08:36

are not in the in the Schedule I think they were being written down so hopefully that's that's OK

any other comments from Committee Members

we do try to keep track of the various items that we discuss and what we want to revisit later on and I know that's something we've discussed as a committee as well and I think that's something we can look at how we perhaps build on that in the next cycle of the committee just to make sure that we are making sure that we're having things come back the for us in could be in different formats but just make sure that we're keeping on top of the the work programme as a whole and we must thank our officers for keeping us on on track with that because there is a lot that comes before so to follow that through his is always challenging

8 Overview and Scrutiny Annual Report

OK if there are no other comments then I read the recommendations before so can I have a a proposer for those recommendations councillor Councillor Jones are could take you as the recommender and Councillor McConville you happy to second OK are all agreed on that agreed thank you OK I think that brings us to our last item this evening which is a straightforward one hopefully the annual report of the overview and scrutiny committee introduced by myself and Councillor McConville and I think you know thank you to the officers for their help in putting the report together. It just takes us through the the things that we have discussed in the course of the year and I think you can see that that we have covered an awful lot of different topics during the course of the year and it's good to see them all collated there and helpful. I think, in helping us think about which ones we need to revisit in the in the year that's coming as well to have all that in one place, so I think just on a on a personal note, I wanted to thank everybody on the committee for their contributions during the course of the year, particularly John as the Vice Chair, and to the officers for their support through the year and obviously all the contributors and guests and other officers that we've had with us through the course of the year

as part of the work programme Councillor Convener, I don't know if you wanted to add anything in relation to the Sub-Committee.

no not to look particularly just to obviously echo what I wrote down,

Cllr Connor McConville - 2:11:03

to put images, to thank all the Members for Radford for their valuable input and for the officers' work that goes into it.

Thank you didn't mean to put you on the spot there.

Cllr Laura Davison - 2:11:18

Are there any other comments from colleagues Councillor Butcher, well just to neutral thanks to two in conifer excellent cheering?

Cllr James Butcher - 2:11:25

Thank you very much much appreciated, I think it has worked well as a

Cllr Laura Davison - 2:11:32

committee during the course of the year and that's been very enjoyable to work together, and I think we've got a lot out of the meetings that we've had together, so thank you we just need to receive and note the report so until we have a proposer that Councillor Martin Elaine Martin and a seconder Councillor Chapman all agreed that concludes the meeting and our final meeting of the year so thank you all very much safe journey home.

Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Tuesday 23 April 2024, 6:00pm - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting