Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee - Tuesday 26 November 2024, 6:00pm

Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee
Tuesday, 26th November 2024 at 6:00pm

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Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Jake Hamilton
Cllr Connor McConville

2 Declarations of interest

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Declarations of Interest

Cllr John Wing
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville

3 Quarter 2 Performance Report 2024-25

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Gavin Edwards
Cllr Connor McConville
Gavin Edwards
Gavin Edwards
Cllr James Butcher
Gavin Edwards
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr John Wing
Gill Butler
Cllr John Wing
Gill Butler
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Gill Butler
Cllr Connor McConville
Gill Butler
Cllr Connor McConville
Gill Butler
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Alan Martin
Gill Butler
Gavin Edwards
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Gavin Edwards
Cllr Connor McConville

4 General Fund Revenue Budget Monitoring - 2nd Quarter (Q2) 2024/25

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Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Jonathan Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Jonathan Smith
Cllr James Butcher
Jonathan Smith
Jonathan Smith
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville

5 General Fund Capital Programme Budget Monitoring 2024/25 - 2nd Quarter (Q2) 2024/25

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Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville

6 HRA Budget Monitoring Quarter 2

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Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Jonathan Smith
Cllr James Butcher
Jonathan Smith
Cllr James Butcher
Lydia Morrison
Jonathan Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Jonathan Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville

7 Treasury Management Monitoring Report - Quarter 1 (Q1) 2024/25

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Cabinet TM Q1 Monitoring Report 24-25 0809

Cllr James Butcher
Lydia Morrison
Jonathan Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Jonathan Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Lydia Morrison
Jonathan Smith
Cllr Connor McConville

8 Treasury Management 2024/25 - Quarter Two

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Cabinet TM Q2 Monitoring Report 24-25

9 Budget Strategy 2025/26

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Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Jonathan Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Andrew Rush
Cllr Connor McConville
Jonathan Smith
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville

10 Fees and Charges 2025/26

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Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr John Wing
Cllr Connor McConville
Folkestone & Hythe Officer
Cllr Connor McConville
Folkestone & Hythe Officer
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:00:04

Good evening everyone and welcome to the meeting of the Finance and Performance Subcommittee.

This meeting will be webcast live to the internet.

For those of you who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you will need to leave the chamber.

For members, officers and others speaking at the meeting, it is important that the microphones

are used so viewers on the webcast and others in the room may hear you.

Will anyone with a mobile phone please switch it to silent as they can be distracting.

I would like to remind members that although we have strong opinions on matters under consideration,

it's important to treat members, officers and public speakers with respect.

Thank you.

Do bear with me, I'll try not to cough and splutter too much.

1 Apologies for absence

Moving on to our agenda, item number one.

Apologies for absence.

Thank you chair we have no apologies.

Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:00:57

Lovely, I see everyone is here.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:00:59

Item number two, declarations of interest.

2 Declarations of interest

Do any members have any declarations they wish to declare?

Councillor Wing.

Thank you chair, just the direct job opportunity in us.

Cllr John Wing - 0:01:12

Okay, thank you noted and Councillor Burch are the same?

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:01:13

Same.

Lovely, okay.

3 Quarter 2 Performance Report 2024-25

Cllr James Butcher - 0:01:18

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:01:19

Item number three, due to performance report and to introduce this is Gavin.

Thank you, Gavin.

Thank you, Chair and good evening, members.

Gavin Edwards - 0:01:29

This report provides an update on the Council's performance of the second quarter of the 24 -25

year covering the 1st of July to the 35th of September.

This report enables the Council to assess progress against the approved key performance

indicators arising from the Council's call for action plan.

A quarterly performance report is set out in appendix one for you and where performance

has not been met explanations have been given from the relevant service leads and noted

within the report.

The format of the report set out in appendix one now includes a year to date position column

showing the latest performance against agreed KPI targets during the year.

The colour coded on target column now includes an amber tick to show where performance is

on track to meet target at the end of the year.

This is in addition to the amber cross previously introduced into the report to show performance

against those KPIs that are within 5 % of the set target.

I have been informed post publication of this report that the final recycling figure for

Q1 has now been confirmed as 47 .9 % as opposed to the 43 % set out within the report.

This will be updated on final publication of the report on the website.

The current position for Q2 is the latest available position reflecting August 24 as

reflected as well in the comments in the main report.

The report once considered this evening will be presented to Cabinet on the 11th of December.

Both Jill and Andrew are also here this evening to support the committee with any questions

they may have in relation to sections of this report that are relevant to their service

areas.

We are happy to take any questions.

Thank you very much.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:02:56

Thank you Gavin and thank you for that information about the recycling waste.

Is it likely then that Q2 could slightly change from the 45 % that's printed?

Please.

Gavin Edwards - 0:03:06

Gavin Edwards - 0:03:10

Thank you, chair.

Yeah, it possibly can because what happens,

just so you're aware of the process,

we get the rough draft based on the transfer station results.

And then Kent verifies that's why you will often

get this sort of fluctuation.

I must admit that's quite a large fluctuation.

I'm surprised it changed that much, but this is not unusual by any means,

so it could quite well change.

Thank you very much for that.

Hopefully it does so we can move closer to our 50 % target.

Right, I'll open it up to members for any questions, concerns or comments

they wish to make.

Any members have anything they wish to...?

No, very quiet.

Councillor Butcher.

Yeah, lovely thank you.

Check I was just going to ask on the topic of recycling.

Do we have evidence about the impact of the increase in the

garden waste charge on the face of the figures? Look broadly

similar to happy in the past. Are we aware of any impact of

increasing the government's charging?

Thank you, Sir Butcher. The subscription numbers have

It actually held up very well.

In fact, we're slightly above the figure

for the previous year.

So it's, and I think that's largely in part

because we had an incredibly favorable summer

for garden waste.

It was very wet and hot and wet.

And that's been shown in the challenges as well.

So subscriptions roughly standing about 15 ,400,

about 28 % of households.

Just to add to that, I might come on to that,

as it's reflected in the financial things coming up

in some of the later items as well to touch on.

Carry on.

It was just something I wanted to ask about.

It's something I've raised before, the My Account KPI,

which is on take -up.

I think what we're missing is the performance of My Account

Cllr James Butcher - 0:05:27

and say from a personal experience, I've put things on there and then it's been two months

and not had a response and I don't think I'm alone in that, I think I've had that experience

and we go to parish council meetings and those kind of things and kind of want to advocate

people using my account. I couldn't hand on hearts saying I really suggest you use my

account because my experience hasn't been great and it does feel that as we move into

the committee system we're being encouraged to get people to use that but I just don't

I think it consistently works in a way it should.

At least we don't have evidence, it doesn't.

I'd like to understand could we not have a KPR mat

and just measure responsiveness time and just look at...

What I got back when I just got an email back saying,

your case has been closed, that was after two months of escalating here.

It's very computer says no kind of thing.

There was no human sense of I know you raised this,

this is what happened and etc.

So, any comments on that?

Thank you, Councilor Bush, for your comments on that. With regards to your specific query

Gavin Edwards - 0:06:29

on that, I can obviously raise those comments with the ICT and Digital Manager with regards

to that and have a conversation with him on that. With regards to obviously a KPI around

that, obviously I know there's still, there's obviously work going on. We're obviously shaping

the new corporate plan as well around that and obviously discussions around obviously

the KPIs and things of, I believe are still to be had on that. But I note your comments.

I'm very happy to go away and have that conversation with him on that particular point and come

back and provide you in the committee a response on that.

Councillor Butchley.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:07:01

Councillor Wing, did you still have something?

Cllr John Wing - 0:07:04

Yeah, on the section 4 on quality homes and infrastructure, obviously it's pretty obvious

that we're not performing too well.

We've got rough sleepers, approximately the same, but we've got more people in bed and

breakfast and more people in the temporary.

It does, I mean obviously this is a national problem and I'm aware this is a problem that

in all areas. I mean it is very concerning that we've not really hit the winter yet

and we've got a long winter ahead of us and I don't know what we can do but it is troubling

I think for everybody on the committee and every councillor I think are concerned about

the number of rough sleepers and people in temporary accommodation.

It's... I don't know any ideas or anything. I mean you see these things with pods and things

a lot of councillors have got now temporary accommodation.

Have we thought about anything like that?

Thank you for your question, Councillor Wynne.

Gill Butler - 0:07:58

Yes, it is a major problem at the moment.

I'll take rough sleeping first,

and then perhaps we can touch on temporary accommodation.

We have some really positive partnerships in our district

with Rough Sleeping and Initiative Partnership,

Dover District Council and other voluntary sector partners,

including Porch Light and the Rainbow Centre that we work with.

And obviously they're there to support homeless people

and those at the risk of homelessness.

We make a contribution of £20 ,000 to the Rainbow Centre

and they run the Winter Shelter,

which, as you know, is there really for those that are street homeless.

The Winter Shelter is going to open on 1 December.

It will run through to 31 March.

So far, because it's coming up literally this weekend,

so far all those accepted.

We've had 15 in all and they've been allocated their rooms.

So that's a positive step.

We've got the street count tonight, in fact, overnight, up until 3am.

We are then going to be hopefully engaging

with each and every one that's on the street right at the moment

and trying to make sure that we support them into some sort of accommodation.

But it remains a worry

and it is really an indicative part of this whole tempera accommodation

and homelessness problem that we are facing at the moment.

So that's the only answer I can give.

We will keep working on this

and trying to ensure that we do not have rough sleepers in this district

as much as we can.

Did you want me to talk about temporary accommodation?

Temporary accommodation, this is a key area for us at the moment.

I looked at the stats from last year,

and last year we had 36 people in temporary accommodation.

The year before, 22, 23, we had 27 people.

And now, with the stats as they are,

and in fact actually there's more.

Since Q2 position we're now at 66 at the moment.

And that is a significantly high number of people

that we do have in temporary accommodation.

The Housing Options team are working really closely

with all of these clients

to find a suitable permanent accommodation form

as quickly as possible.

but there simply isn't enough social or affordable homes,

rented homes in the district.

In terms of homelessness and the impact that it has,

it is obviously having an impact on our workload and our resources

and of course our budget.

But I would say that we focus really heavily on prevention at Folkestone Hive

and we are still one of the best in terms of our TA figures

across the whole of Kent.

And we compare really well with the rest of the country.

So it is something that we're doing really well with

in terms of the prevention side of things.

We are putting together a plan, looking at the moment,

to try to use more of our housing, our HRA stock,

for temporary accommodation.

It is allowed for us to do so.

We've already got about 10 years of our HRA stock

and we're putting together a paper to consider the options

around another 10, possibly 20 more

that we could use in the short term to try and alleviate the situation.

But there is a bit of a double -edged sword to that

because of course this takes away numbers available to those families

on the council waiting list.

But it certainly will alleviate both the financial pressures

and the actual pressures in the short term over the next couple of years.

Hopefully that helps.

Thank you for that.

Councillor Wing, did you have anything else to add?

Cllr John Wing - 0:12:09

Yes, this committee really appreciates the amount of work and we know it's a difficult situation.

Just for my own self, Rainbow Centre, Winter Shelter, they're still using separate rooms rather than church halls.

But are they still in the case of using that being B &B but not providing wealth and the other provides a bit?

Is that right? In other words, if people are going into individual rooms rather than like a church hall?

Gill Butler - 0:12:37

I believe they do have an actual centre of accommodation.

I'm actually not sure which building they use but they do have a centre that they actually have people in.

I'll take that back.

My Head of Housing Strategy is away on move at the moment,

so I'll have to ask him that question,

but I will come back to you with an answer.

Councillor Davidson.

Thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:12:58

I think we've talked about this section of the report

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:13:01

multiple times in different meetings,

because it clearly stands out with the amount of red

that there is in the report.

I appreciate officers coming to the meeting

to answer questions this evening.

I think that's really helpful.

I just wanted to ask whether there were any initiatives going on

with other partner organisations to particularly focus on these issues at the moment.

And then just to ask about the affordable homes part of the report.

You said there simply aren't enough places for people

and that's another aspect where we've got a red cross at the moment.

So, thanks.

Gill Butler - 0:13:45

In terms of partnership, Councillor, we do work really closely with, as I said, people

such as Porch Light and there's other outreach, voluntary organisations that we work with

across the district.

We also, the Kent Housing Group and the Kent Housing Options Group, we have a Kent -wide

approach.

We have, not so long ago, we commissioned Kent Housing Group,

actually commissioned a consultant to have a look

at the temporary accommodation problem,

and particularly looking at the cost of nightly B &B.

They are looking to put together perhaps some sort of consortium group

to perhaps look at purchasing nightly B &B as a group,

which might alleviate some of the cost pressures,

but it's in its really early stages at the moment.

We do constantly work together as a group across the districts.

In terms of the question, which was around...

It's affordable and council housing.

The numbers are affordable.

It is down this year, but we do have some that are in progress at the moment.

They were due to be coming through to us in October,

but they've been delayed and we're now taking handover in the new year.

I believe it's nine properties, not quite sure,

but I think it's nine properties. I'll check that and come back to you.

In terms of other affordable in the district,

we've had a good relationship over the years

with other housing associations.

They have built quite a lot over the years in our district.

However, lately there has been a real drop off

in the number of housing associations that are looking to build,

not just here but across the whole country, in fact,

because of the cost pressures against their HRA

in terms of meeting decent homes, the new legislation,

making sure that they comply,

and all of the other things that the HRA has to cope with

that means that building affordable housing is left mainly to developers

and us purchasing Section 106s at the moment.

That's the focus and that's what we're trying to do.

As the RISBRA shows, that's what we've gone out and done.

Any more on that, Councillor Anderson?

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:16:21

I'll just add a little bit to that.

Would you say, I mean, what you're saying almost mirrors what we're sort of having to

do as a council, focusing not solely but a large part on properties to EPCC and a lot

of the budget is going towards our existing stock as opposed to building new houses.

I mean, there's obviously a sort of a time frame, I guess, for that when that work is

done.

Are you aware of the housing associations?

Are they on, would you say they're on a similar sort of plan to us?

They're sort of focused really quite intensely on the next three to five years on doing that

work and then hopefully after that period there should be, should we say, more funds

available for new builds and do you think that cycle will start again where there'll

be hopefully a bit of a boom in building new homes after the ones that have already existed

are up to the standard that's required, unless obviously legislation changes and have to

do it all again, let's hope not.

Would you think that would be quite right from what you hear in the industry?

Gill Butler - 0:17:37

Chair, yes, if I had a crystal ball, I would say it probably can take all of five or ten

years for the housing sector to get back to the point that it was at a few years ago in

terms of housing delivery unless the government puts its hand in its pocket and starts to

give us a lot more funding in terms of and really kick start not just affordable housing

but social housing building.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:18:11

And I mean just on where we are as a council in terms of our own new builds and acquisitions,

I don't know if there's any update.

I mean, Shetway Close for example, we were meant to take some units there.

I don't know, has that all happened?

Have all those units come?

I know they're still doing some things there.

Bigginswood, I know it was looking at one stage, there might be some HOA in that and

then maybe not.

So maybe just some clarity on the sites.

Obviously you heard the most recent one, which is great,

but any other sort of things that are still in the pipeline

that could possibly come through, probably not.

It would be unlikely to see much in the next six months, I understand,

but at least in that longer forward look.

Yeah, absolutely. In the HRO business plan,

Gill Butler - 0:19:01

we did put five million in per year for the next 18 years.

and we have, as you say, we've already taken on the Risborough 44 properties.

The Shepway closed ones are still in progress.

They were due to be handed over, but they wanted to hand them over in December.

We've now said we don't want them empty over December.

Boyd properties, we'll take them in January, so we're taking them in January.

There are a number of other items that we are looking at and negotiating with.

section 20s, right across the district, section 21, sorry.

And it's a constant change, really.

We have a HRA pipeline that we constantly update

and we look at on a regular monthly basis,

looking at the best deals that we can possibly

find for our $5 million.

And yeah, we're hopeful that we can acquire quite a few

over the next few years.

That's great, thank you.

Councillor Butch, would you like to come back in?

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:20:07

Well, yeah, it was just to say that we focused in on some of the problem areas

Cllr James Butcher - 0:20:12

but there's so much really positive here that I'd really like just to acknowledge

and thank officers for some things like the housing benefit performance,

it's amazing to see how well that's improved, the street cleanliness.

I think when you read stuff online you can get a very kind of gloopy picture

of what the Council is up to and you see figures like that and it's great to see that.

So it's very just to acknowledge that and thank officers for all the work that's gone

into achieving those results.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:20:42

Yeah, and I'll echo that, especially the KPIs for data breaches.

I mean, it's been a long, long running saga of many, many quarters of red and I hope it's

to all the training and everything else that was put in place by the council leadership.

It's great to see green boxes in there, so long may it continue.

Any, Councillor Martin.

Thank you.

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:21:15

I completely agree with your point on the KPIs and also thank you for all the work you've

done to build out the KPIs in a more granular way going forward and look forward to that

coming through Q3 onwards.

Just a minor point on the homeless, the rough sleepers KPI.

When I raised that point previously, one of my angles on it was that

from my own area I'm aware of at least one rough sleeper who

does it through choice and the council has literally done everything

they possibly could do and has housed them on a number of occasions

and they keep escaping and going back to where they started.

And I just wonder if we can...

I'm not saying the council should kind of car park them and not try,

but if we can maybe label that in a way that just makes it clear

that the council is actually doing everything that it can do

and it shouldn't be seen as a delta, I guess was the point I was raising.

But thanks for all the stuff you did there.

I think Councillor Davison covered off the question I had on affordable homes.

But I'll ask it anyway just in case there's a different angle on it.

It's just the KPIs around new council homes and affordable homes.

So we're so far off the target and I totally understand it's a difficult environment.

but I wonder whether the target, when we think about it going forward,

is realistic, or is it absolutely right that we're targeting those numbers

and...

but there's just these pressures that you've described.

I wonder if you can speak about that as well as...

I think for a couple of quarters now,

we've had this little glimmer of hope in the commentary

saying that we're expecting this to get better later in the year

and then it hasn't done. I wonder if you can maybe just speak to that a little bit more

around whether you genuinely believe it is going to get better

or whether we need to be a bit more honest about it, maybe.

Gill Butler - 0:23:29

I think it is going to get better

because we have taken on 44 new homes at Brisbane Barracks

and that obviously isn't in the figures at the moment.

There are others in the pipeline.

I do feel it is going to get better.

I just think a lot of the targets are based on historical figures.

I go back to my point about the template accommodation.

Historically, we would have been able to achieve 35,

but now, with the climb that we're in, we're at 66.

We will never achieve 35.

So it is about maybe looking at those targets and adjusting accordingly.

I'm sure Gavin will have an opinion on that.

Gavin Edwards - 0:24:18

Thank you for that question, Councillor Morton.

With regards to the targets as well, we do look at them each year as well, so we will

get into that phase, probably into the new year, where we will start to look at people's

targets ahead of the year as well on that.

plan where obviously we'll look at KPIs coming up, obviously for the new financial year coming

ahead as well.

And obviously I know there's the work going on as well with the new corporate plan with

regards to that as well.

So that we will in the new year be looking obviously at targets with services as well

on that.

So it will be noted.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:24:53

Anything else for that?

Cass Davison?

Yeah, just I think we discussed the market improvement program

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:25:00

events at the last meeting and there's a number in the report.

I think we had some discussion about it not just being a

number but reflecting kind of how effective they've been and

what had come from those.

So I don't know if there's anything that can be shared on

that or could be shared after the meeting.

Thank you for that question on that Council. Davidson, I don't believe

Gavin Edwards - 0:25:31

I have any information

on over what directly to hand, but what I can do is I can speak to the regeneration

team on that to give a little bit more narrative around around that. As far as I'm aware, I'll

get back to you on that on the committee.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:25:48

Okay, if there's no more questions or concerns on that then I'll be happy to receive a note

of the report.

Lovely show of hands, thank you.

And thank you very much Jill and Andrew for coming along and offering some more insight.

Very welcome, thank you.

4 General Fund Revenue Budget Monitoring - 2nd Quarter (Q2) 2024/25

Okay, moving on to item number four, our general fund revenue budget monitoring for quarter

two.

Lydia, do you want to introduce this briefly?

Lydia Morrison - 0:26:24

Thank you very much, Councillor Conville.

This is your half year general fund budget monitoring report.

Hopefully the report is comprehensive enough to show you the movements within services

and what is causing or leading to a movement in our budget.

As you know, when we do our budgeting,

we forecast as best we possibly can,

we profile as best as we possibly can,

but we generally expect movements

from that original baseline position.

Hopefully you will be happy that a 61K

at this time of year difference is a manageable difference,

and I'm not having or receiving any concerns

that the budget is under significant constraints and services are managing currently within

their agreed operational budgets.

We have Councillor Prater here and obviously the rest of my team here to answer any particular

questions you may have.

Thank you.

Councillor Prater, do you want to say anything or are you happy just

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:27:23

to respond to questions?

I always want to say something.

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:27:26

It's brief.

I mean, obviously, councillors will have read the report and will have identified under

3 .5 .1 where one of the most significant pressures are coming from there and it reflects back

directly on the conversation you've just been having around temporary accommodation and

the not only the human cost of people in temporary accommodation but actually the cost of the

council of having people in temporary accommodation as well.

with the broad headline on that being that the government pays for some temporary accommodation costs

but only pays a very limited amount if it is private to temporary accommodation

and 100 % of it if it is council owned temporary accommodation.

And the cost pressure there is becoming very significant

as we put people into private sector temporary accommodation

because you can only get back a small percentage of the money that that actually costs you.

That's to the extent now wherein Hastings and Eastbourne, for example,

they are spending just over 50 % of their council tax income

on temporary accommodation.

Yes, 50%.

They are in a massively unsustainable position

and other councils have been mentioned already this evening, Liverpool etc.

We're in a much, much better position than that, as Gill has said,

but it has certainly got worse from where we hoped it would be.

It certainly got worse in year, in the last year,

and that is where you're seeing a lot of that cost pressure coming from.

The discussion that Jill was having around about us getting more temporary accommodation

into the XRA is A, because that's the right thing to do anyway,

and B, because if we have, that protects us against some of that pressure

in future years and reduces that cost for us as well.

So we're very clear what the direction of travel on that is,

which is that the more temporary accommodation this council owns,

balanced against the fact that if you've got a property at that stage,

then other councillors are going to stare at it and go,

why haven't we got a family in there full time?

You need that balance, and it isn't that you can just go out into the market tomorrow

and buy 50 units for temporary accommodation.

They're just not there.

They're just not, you know, the kind of properties that would work in need, they're just not

available right now, but if you happen to know that they are somewhere, let us know,

we'll go shopping.

But that's, looking to make the capital expenditure in order to increase the amount of TA which

the council actually owns, will protect us in the longer term against the revenue costs

that you're seeing here as well.

I think aside from that pressure, I think we'd be in a rather better place.

We'd probably still be underspending in terms of...

But that is a measure.

We have looked at it in detail in terms of the cost there.

We think, I've said before, our projections to the end of the year are always guessing

with style.

the closer we get to the end of the year, the more style that we're doing it with.

But we're very clear, we don't think that's a moving up target,

we don't think that's a ninja cut, but it really depends how many people present,

need that help during the course of it.

The winter shelter, in terms of that, that absorbs some of that pressure,

that helps us with some of those things.

But actually if you've got somebody off the street,

sometimes you are then moving them on into TA

and then on into other accommodation as well.

So there are those issues there as well.

So we're aware of it.

That's where a lot of that pressure's come from.

That's why it's changed significantly since the quarter one,

because there are just more people who need that help,

and it is just costing the camps or more.

That's absolutely not us saying that we're not going to do it,

because we are going to do it.

They need that support and they'll get it.

But we also know that in terms of the funding model

which is in place, which frankly is broken.

I mean, how a government funding model does that,

I don't know, but it's broken.

In order to protect ourselves from that funding model,

we are looking to get more temporary accommodation

with the HRA, and you should see things coming forward

on that in the next two or three months,

coming through the cabinet or committees, I don't know.

Thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:31:55

Lydia, do you want to come back?

Lydia Morrison - 0:31:58

Just to give some context to what Councillor Prater has just been saying, the DWP pay 90 %

of the 2016 baseline fee and we get back about 40%.

So we get back about £87 to £89 depending on the type of accommodation and it's costing

us in the region of over £250 a week.

So that's the significant gap currently

within that temporary accommodation within the private sector.

Where we accommodate temporarily into our own stock,

that is considered a fair rent,

and the DWP will recompense that at 100%.

So for us, not only do I believe

that we can potentially provide better accommodation,

but also we can release some of that financial strain on us.

But we do have a Home Runners Reserve

that we will be looking to continue to top up that for the time being until we bring

forward that additional temporary accommodation to our end stock.

Thank you for that.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:33:04

Members, members want to, are there anything on what's already been raised or any other

aspects of the report?

Councillor Woodshire.

Thanks chair, I'll just ask about the reserves.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:33:24

So page 41 in the paragraph 5 .3, I don't quite understand that first sentence and then just

wondered about the, so the table then shows approximately 2 million pound reduction in

reserves and whether that's a trend or what is our strategy about our reserves because

feels like quite a big chunk to go down in the year.

Are we going to see that year on year?

Because it's quite a short term thing

if we're spending our reserves in that way.

But yeah, just wanted to see if you could just expand a bit on 5 .3.

Thank you.

Councillor Richard, sorry, could you confirm the sentence?

Lydia Morrison - 0:34:08

Oh yeah, it says the level of earmarked reserves projected for discretionary stroke

committee to use by the council is 10 .1 million compared to 12 .07 million.

5 .3 on page 39.

39.

The little blurb just before the reserves table.

There are a number of reserves as you know.

We have earmarked reserves, we have ringfenced reserves.

You will see significant movements within the reserves year on year because effectively

The funding that comes directly to us from governments such as the homelessness reserves

will sit in our reserve and that will move in and out year on year based on that movement.

Our own discretionary reserves, we will create reserves like the environmental reserve which

we have agreed to pay certain sums out of and that will increase depending on the projects

and what is agreed at the budget term.

So that movement is generally in that region.

And as long as the underlying balance is comfortable,

and my recommendation is at the moment that you're in a good position,

and when we go through the budget and budget reserves,

you'll see that there will be some commitments

having to be made on that in future years,

again, to support things like the temporary accommodation.

Level of reserves are comfortable.

They're not currently under strain,

but they will become if we continue to draw on them.

But at the moment it's OK.

But that movement is generally out of your dedicated ring fence reserves

from funding that comes from government to come to say

things like your Section 31 grant, the top ups,

things like your NI going forward charges.

So we do get compensated through a Section 31 grant,

which again comes into a reserve and then is moved out into the general fund.

And then with the table itself that's showing that's about £2 million production,

so is that an absolute, there's only £2 million less in the reserves

going forward and potentially?

It's a full cost, as you know.

At the end of the year, when we've closed the accounts

and we've got our out -turn,

sometimes services are performed in a different manner

and don't require the support from the reserves.

So, for example, the welfare team within the benefits team, that is paid through a reserve,

which is a dedicated reserve that comes through from funding.

If that isn't required at the end of the year, we won't move it out if at the end of the

year we are balanced.

So sometimes that movement isn't quite as expected, but sometimes, you know, things

like the temporary accommodation costs, that will be funded through the homelessness reserves

and topped up through the homelessness reserves

if the costs to us aren't met from our own general fund.

Thanks, Louise. I've got that sense there was lots of ins and outs,

but then I suppose I'm trying to get my head around,

are we looking at a trend year on year?

Tim's shaking his head about point of...

Or are we looking at sticking at the level you're advising us is comfortable?

The current executive wished to use reserves for special projects

At the moment, our own general reserve isn't producing surpluses to create or top up reserves.

The statutory reserves will always be used because they come in to compensate us to provide

an additional service.

So they will always come in and they will always go out.

Our own earmarked and discretionary reserves, that will be a matter for the executive to

effectively manage and decide what they wish to do with that.

But yes, if we don't find ourselves in a position to be able to top up

in future years, they will diminish and fall away.

And it's difficult when you have the strain that we have

on our general reserve through a lack of current funding coming to us

to continue to deliver those services.

Anything else on that, James?

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:38:17

There's nothing else, just a couple of things from me.

Obviously the gap from Q1 to Q2 was quite large and thanks for the explanations around

some of the…

I just wanted to have a look at planning and building control which is another one that's

had quite a shift from Q1 to Q2.

Looking at a substantial underspending Q1 to reasonable overspends, doesn't have a

massive budget.

In Q1 at the last meeting, there was 126 ,000 projected saving for staff vacancies.

And I asked the question if that was an actual figure for the quarter, so that that money

had effectively already been saved within that department.

And the answer to that question was yes.

So there's already £126 ,000 extra in that budget, from my understanding.

So I just don't know why.

It just seems that that makes the leap even more sort of great for me.

So unless the answer to that question was wrong, the projected 126 was if those vacancies

were vacant all year round, which is the question that I asked.

But I was told no, that that saving from Q1, that was money in the bank that we had.

So there's that.

And then a projected saving in terms of additional income for building control.

And then in Q2 it's saying reduce building regulation fees, which leads us to having

an overspend.

So we've gone from a £93 ,000 saving to £133 ,000 overspend in building control fees and regulation

fees.

So I know it's quite, it might not have the answers this evening, but just be good to

get a bit more clarity on those discrepancies between Q1 and Q2.

Thank you.

Jonathan Smith - 0:40:48

I don't have all the detail, but obviously I understand from conversation generally with

planning and building control department, but if demand led, and I know there has been

a drop off in the demand, which obviously has impacted some of the income, that's as

much as I could probably do right now without going into more detail with the chief officer

and planning and building control.

Thanks.

I mean, that'd be helpful just because, I mean, apart from the one that was sort of

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:41:14

highlighted and explained well, for me that's the only one that sort of looks like a bit

an anomaly between Q1 and Q2.

And again another small little thing.

I don't know why it would happen but there might be a reason.

but the tables, so our sort of overview table on page 32 is changed from the original table

from the original Q1 papers and not by much but for an example governance, law and democracy

a variance of 108, which is in brackets 108, is now brackets 111.

Leadership support, overspend of 160, now an overspend of 163.

You know, small numbers, but why are we changing Q1s when they're already reported in Q1?

That is normally the alignment of the director of science and when you do that you can have

a budgeting of the monitoring to ensure that in a year -long team of directors you can find

out that you are still trying to account for systems that are not aligned with your systems

in the direction of directors. You can come up with a term that says I believe that's

the differences.

Okay, it's just obviously when you look at what we had three months ago and what we look

at now, you expect the figures to be the same.

And I know there are only small changes, but yeah, it would be good just to have, yeah,

if they are being changed, then at least something to say as to why.

And that was, yeah, I mean, they were the two points from me.

Councillor Davidson?

Yeah, it was just to pick up the conversation we had last time about Connect 38.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:43:18

I think we said it would be good to

scrutinize what's happening there,

so I'm just wondering if there's been

any movement on looking at that.

It is one of these strategic objectives

that has been agreed about the executive

Lydia Morrison - 0:43:31

that they should be at full review of

Connect 38 and its future.

It has been and that will be taken forward.

At the moment,

that's all I can say because we it's

just being agreed by the executive

that that will happen.

Is there a time frame around that?

We're hoping that that will be a recommendation will come forward for next year's budget,

if not sooner.

It won't be within this financial year to impact on, fully on next year.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:44:08

Okay, so obviously the papers before us are the cabinet papers.

Councillor Butcher.

Would you have to go to a website for another question?

No, come back to you, Professor Bridge.

Yeah, it was. There we go.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:44:22

So this is section 3 .5 .10

of a non -service related variation just above section 4

and it's got a couple of expenditure finance from revenue.

The variances as a result of changes made to reflect

the projected slippage within the capital programme

and it's quite a big number.

Again, you just sort of help us understand what that means exactly.

Jonathan Smith - 0:44:55

Sorry, I'm just trying to find it in the report.

It's 30 minutes, is that correct?

Well, I've got it on page 40 of the pack, but that's the pack as a whole.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:45:07

In terms of the underlying detail of what's happened on the capital

Jonathan Smith - 0:45:32

program, what would

have happened here is the variance is effectively

as a result of capital program movements.

And then this is in the associated capital

expenditure finance revenue.

So what happens is you have a revenue amount of spend

that is used to fund or finance some of the items

on your capital program.

And where capital program items then slip,

it will affect the amount of revenue

you need to put towards that.

because obviously if there's a timing difference,

you would no longer need to fund something with revenue.

But without seeing the underlying details of what's

caused that on the CAPA program, it's

difficult for me to answer immediately.

But I can refer to the assumption

that this CAPA board would be standing right.

Jonathan Smith - 0:46:47

I will take this one away because I need to understand what the underlying movements

are to understand the number.

I will come back to you on that.

At the end of the thing, and it picks up what you were saying, Chair, earlier about the

Cllr James Butcher - 0:46:58

Garden waste, I think it's 115 ,000 that's in there as a increase,

and I think it's just a reminder that yes,

those are tough decisions that we have to make on top of the time,

but would we now go back and say,

let's not put those charges up and let's do without the 115 grand,

and I think it's just kind of memo to ourselves sometimes,

we're going to really welcome making those tough decisions.

Did you want to address that?

Just to come back on both of those points,

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:47:24

I totally agree with you and we will bottom out.

The increase in that contribution from revenue to capital doesn't match the description,

so we will come back to you to make sure that actually the description matches the number

which is given to you.

Your point is very well made on the increase in service charges for garden waste.

We broke the elasticity curve.

We broke the demand curve with that, is that we put the price up and the number of people

using the service went up.

Bad on that one much.

And it certainly wasn't where we budgeted.

We'd expected that you put the price up and the number of service users drops slightly,

but the total revenue increases because the price has increased.

In this instance, the number of users in total went up, as well as the additional amount

of money they were paying, which is why you're seeing a significant amount more than we budgeted

for.

As Andrew explained, I think some of that is due to the weather being extraordinary.

I think some of it is due to magic beyond our control.

But we'll take it for once.

Sometimes magic works for you and we're having it.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:48:42

And one more thing I forgot to ask.

A very simple thing, but obviously just looking at the carry -forwards.

some inroads into utilizing those in this financial year,

but there's still quite a lot outstanding.

So just as we're halfway, where do we think we're projected to be

a year -end in terms of those carry -forwards from last year?

Lydia Morrison - 0:49:13

Some of the carry -forwards are ring fence reserves,

and as you said, sometimes at the end of the year we haven't used them.

In reality, they should go back into the ring fence reserve,

and I think we'll be managing it slightly better.

They will be now transferred into the correct position

by the end of this financial year.

There is still some significant carry -fors

and we will be using that to create

a financial resilience reserve

to ensure that we've got money set aside

to deal with any write -offs or unforeseen

that may come out of left field

and that's part of the budget work

that we've done with the executive to create that,

where it hasn't been used and isn't ring fenced, it will be used to create a new financial

resilience reserve.

Okay, thanks for that, that's very helpful.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:50:00

Okay, so as I said just before, these are all cabinet papers that go to cabinet next

week, I think.

So we're just obviously to receive a note and our comments will be passed on.

So, I'll be happy to receive a note, the report.

Show of hands, lovely, thank you.

Okay, so that was item four.

5 General Fund Capital Programme Budget Monitoring 2024/25 - 2nd Quarter (Q2) 2024/25

Item five, again, Q2, monitoring, but this time for the capital programme.

And Lydia, you've introduced this one very briefly as well.

Lydia Morrison - 0:50:34

I hope you've read the report

and it shows the half -year position based on forecasts provided to us

by the project managers of each of those capital programmes.

again happy to take questions.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:50:49

Thank you. Do Members have any questions or concerns regarding the current capital program

position? It's not as changed as Q1 for Councillor Butcher.

Yeah, it was just to get a bit of explanation around the levelling up professional fees,

Cllr James Butcher - 0:51:07

the change in that and what does that signify about the project, so just any commentary

around that.

I have a briefing on that just earlier today.

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:51:24

It basically means it's going to be done in the next financial year.

We'd hoped to do more of it in this financial year than we're going to.

People with diggers and stuff are only going to hit site by about May or June on our current

projections.

tendering and stuff is going on at the moment.

A number of the tenders have been back in

and I'm delighted to say the number of instances are affordable.

So the various judgement calls are going to go on at the moment

but we've had agreement that the funding can be spent through 25 -26

as long as it's spent by 26.

So effectively you're still doing it

but it's slipped into the next financial year.

We'd hoped to do more of it in this year

but it'll be in the next financial year and that's where the slip is.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:52:09

If I just come in on that as well, because obviously we had a briefing, the wider overview

and scrutiny committee not that long ago, and it was my understanding that the contract

and the tendering would be sort of one, so the council would just give one lump of money

largely to KCC and then, so are we now sort of saying that payments will be split in terms

of delivering the contract?

because that seems different to what was proposed initially in the plan.

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:52:41

There were various different bits of the Lough, as you know,

various different bits of it, so I think a fair chunk of it,

the highway's work is KCC related, but there are other elements to it as well,

and the fear had always been that you got this chunk of money three years ago,

and to do a certain number of things, and inflation has happened since,

and there was the fear about whether you were going to be able to still do it,

but it has been checked, value engineered I believe is the lingo on that,

and they believe that the scheme is still affordable and the tendering is semi -affirmative.

I understand a fair number of those bits are actually closed and back in

and there are some bits that can make this happen,

which is excellent news, I had the terrible fear that people were going to be turning around to you and say

you know we wanted to do this thing, we can't afford to do this thing

but that's not currently, that wasn't the case that I was told earlier today

OK thanks

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:53:40

I think that's the main sort of chunk of variance on that report

but if anyone else has anything else, Councillor Davidson

I was just going to ask about the coronation parade

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:53:52

and that's also been re -profiled to next year.

So I feel like we've seen that happen before on the coronation parade line,

so I just wanted to check really around that,

and what the rationale, what the reason for that might be.

Happy to ask Andy B to email us and to tell us what...

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:54:19

somebody else can do that. Thank you.

That would be helpful because clearly we have seen land slips in that area for example so

just be useful to know.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:54:29

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:54:34

Okay, that's right. Okay, if there's nothing more on the capital programme, I'd be just

happy to receive a note back. A shot of hands, lovely, thank you. Okay, so the next quarter

Number two, monitoring is for our HOA budget, both for revenue and capital.

I don't know if there's anything that you want to highlight in the report.

6 HRA Budget Monitoring Quarter 2

No?

Okay.

Members, any questions or concerns, either with the revenue side or the capital side

of our current HOA position?

Councillor Butcher?

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:55:10

Yeah, I was just going to ask about, well, it's there's a list in 2

Cllr James Butcher - 0:55:15

.2.

Of these variations and then one of them is the.

Inflation, the repairs and maintenance contractors set out in 2 .6. I just wanted to

understand this this 8 % contract inflation.

Is that kind of what everyone is experiencing around the country? And

because obviously that's higher than general inflation, so I just want to

understand how come we do not happen to pay about 8 % off with.

Yes, and just is that what everyone's having to do?

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:55:47

Thank you, Councilor Butcher.

I'll take the question.

Jonathan Smith - 0:55:52

It is just a case of we know construction costs gone up and

and obviously contractors are charging more in this

specifically related to the fact that we forecast an

inflationary figure, but it turned out to be 8%.

Hence why there's such a large variance here.

It was all, I think, our contract specifically for repairs and maintenance was quite old

and obviously it came then up for renewal under new terms much more recently.

Obviously, unfortunately, Jill would have had probably more information on that, but

essentially that's kind of the reason behind it.

It was a fairly old contract which had sort of older terms and generally, again, inflation

in the past I think it was an inflationary

contract which was tied to an indice,

which obviously was lower in the past,

obviously now in a higher inflationary

environment this is when we've gone to

extend I think the contract at this stage

or as part of the retender this is where

experiencing the increased cost.

Do we know if this is comparable with

up this for other districts?

Cllr James Butcher - 0:56:58

Without knowing the detail of their

Jonathan Smith - 0:57:05

I couldn't answer specifically, I can certainly ask Chief Housing Officer to look into this

if that's helpful.

I mean, not without, I mean, without lots of digging or anything, but I'm just curious

if we've got some comparators to know, you know, in the NHS, I've been

Cllr James Butcher - 0:57:21

talking about

NHS inflation is running at this sort of level, so I guess if, you know, if one ICB is seeing

an increase that will be in line with that, that's kind of reassuring.

If it's out of sync, that's more concerning, so it would be just good to know how that sits.

Lydia Morrison - 0:57:42

We can ask our procurement team to look at uplifts in contracts that we've recently renewed for you,

and come back to you, just to get a general feel.

But for example, in some of the IT contracts that we've recently renewed,

that uplift has been about 10 to 15%.

Jonathan Smith - 0:58:02

And if I could add to that,

yeah, and it's and obviously not just

then ICT with insurance as well.

I've seen a big increase in

percentage terms as well,

so there are certainly pockets and

I think the even insurance one from

my understanding speaking to insurance

officer just generally is obviously

related to sometimes build rebuild

costs and build costs in the

construction costs so it's it's

but I can certainly get some more information for you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:58:30

Anyone else? Just on that point about the 8%,

I think we did ask at the last meeting

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:58:37

what percentage was budgeted for.

And in the in terms of a percentage increase,

which then obviously turned out to be 8%.

I don't know whether I'm not sure whether

we got an answer on on that previously.

Jonathan Smith - 0:59:08

I think it would have been a general inflationary increase of about 3 % or so or thereabouts.

I'd have to try and find the specifics on that but I think it would have been a lower

a lower figure, hence the variance.

I think it would have been about 3 % or so.

I was going to say 3 % as well.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:59:28

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:59:57

Okay, anything else on our HRA?

Okay, are we happy to receive a note, that report and continue on?

Okay, thank you.

7 Treasury Management Monitoring Report - Quarter 1 (Q1) 2024/25

Okay so up next item 7 and item 8 as well really so we have quarter 1 of the treasury

management monitoring report which we didn't seem to have in September and we have the

current Q2 so might be helpful to take sort of both items at the same time and if you're

referring to either the Q1 or the Q2 if you've got any specific questions.

I think that would be easier rather than possibly repeat the same questions over and over again.

So do any members have anything they wish to query or raise with regards to either our

Q1 or Q2 treasury management?

If not, I've got something to start with but you can go ahead James.

No?

Okay, yeah thanks.

Cllr James Butcher - 1:01:04

I looked at the Q1 before I realised there was a Q2 as well,

so I'll stick with Q1.

It was just to get some advice, really.

It says the borrowing is around $108 million.

How do we judge whether that's OK or not?

Residents, I have been asked by residents,

what's our level of borrowing

because they read about councils and overextend themselves.

You can give a figure of, well, it's $108 million,

but is that OK, alarming?

and how do we judge that on a budget of around 20 million?

Lydia Morrison - 1:01:43

On our need and affordability, there is a level that is set every year

and we bring that to you in the budget monitoring reports

and the advisor under the treasury management report

and the MTFP around what we feel is appropriate.

It's not unusual.

In fact, in some cases, we are quite light in our borrowing.

We do have a significant amount of cash that we collect based that we are the precepting

authority and we do hold section 106 and sell.

So we do try to use the best of that cash flow as well in short -term interest rates.

So I think the last calculation we did, we collect on behalf of all the preceptors and

and all the money that goes through is around just over 200 million of cash that goes through

our accounts. It's not all ours, obviously. And we do have Arlene Close as our Treasury

Management experts because it is quite a complex field to try and make sure it's secure because

it's public money, so there are regulations, as you know. I think we did a little bit of

Treasury training and sharing with you. So no, at the moment, 108 million is affordable.

We do monitor that regularly because of the impact it has on our revenue account under interest and MRP.

It would be something that we would be highlighting to you if we felt it was going to become out of context to what was affordable to us.

If I may come in.

So another good point to note is that in terms of the borrowing, it might be a hundred and

Jonathan Smith - 1:03:19

seven million, but actually almost half of that is for the HRA.

And obviously the HRA stock is generating revenue through rental income, and the HRA

is obviously self -sustaining, and you'll have seen the HRA business plan, which has already

gone through, and that's obviously a sustainable business plan.

And so at least half of the borrowing is obviously accounted for by the HRA.

And obviously Ben there is effectively 57 million on the general fund, but that will

be supporting obviously our capital programme and obviously members take decisions and executives

take decisions based on the needs or wishes of what we want to include in our capital

programme going forward.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:04:02

A couple of things from myself that sort of just stand out a little bit. Our credit score

5 .11 at the end of March, 4 .94 at the end of June, 4 .88 at the end of September, so

slowly going down, still above similar authorities in the table in 5 .12, but I don't know, is

there any rationale for that? Is there any explanation as to why our credit score is

slowly decreasing? And is that something that's likely to continue or are we likely to see

an upturn in that?

Jonathan Smith - 1:04:51

Thank you chair. I may take that one back possibly to our treasury advisors for clarification

on that just to support the information that's in here.

in here.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:05:03

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:05:23

If it did continue to trickle down then we could go A -A.

a minus for example, couldn't we, in another 9 to 12 months time if we kept going, we ended

up hitting 4 .6, so it would be good just to get an indicator if it was some short term

borrowing that's happened that's maybe dipped it a little bit and then if that's likely

to go up.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:06:01

And then the other one was just on again some of our short -term borrowing, where we've borrowed

some short -term smallish sort of loans, two, three million here and there, at local authorities

or organisations, they're offering quite reasonable rates, 4 .9 as opposed to when we're taking

some out for 5 .25 and it would be good to just get a bit more rationale as to, you know,

is that the amount, the most that we could borrow from that organisation at that rate

Lydia Morrison - 1:06:37

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:06:39

or, you know, just, because on paper if you read it, it's like, oh why couldn't we just

borrow 5 million from them at a better rate than not, you know, have to borrow 3 million

at 5 .25 when someone's offering 4 .8, 4 .9.

so there's not a lot in the pack that rationalises the decisions behind them.

Lydia Morrison - 1:06:59

We always take advice from Marlene Close around what the best offers are and the terms that

we want and we're looking for and the terms of borrowing. They've always advised us on

the short term borrowing. Again, we can't borrow in advance of need, so that always

has to be aligned on need and it does impact on where we can go on that and the length

So, as I said, we're always balancing short term and long term and we'll look for the

best deal but sometimes the rate will just, within an hour, it could move.

And it's also the offers because although they may be available, it's also what could

be offered to us as well.

And it's around security as well, our own security and understanding that we're not

putting somebody else at risk.

Is there like a local authority sort of, I don't know, marketplace I guess, where they're

sort of like offering two million at this and then it changes?

I can just imagine like, you know, like the markets and…

You know, local authorities do do inter -authority borrowing.

So we all set our own rates depending on the terms we want to and who we're lending to.

Obviously we have to be only lend to each other and it's that security of your guarantee of payback.

And it is basically we use our treasury advisors to advise on what the best rates are

and trying to be competitive across the board.

Jonathan Smith - 1:08:27

Thank you chair. And there's sometimes timing, literally the timing makes a big difference.

As Lydia mentioned there's obviously some variability, a change by the hour

but also even in terms of the time of the year,

towards year end, rates go up significantly,

because other authorities know that other authorities are

then looking to get some cash in.

So that can affect the rate significantly.

And if we don't have, for example, maturity

of some of our existing borrowing, say, at that time,

it then impacts what we can then take out.

So in some cases, we've probably had some historic debt, which

has come to maturity after, say, five, 10 years,

or whatever the term was, just at a time when rates are slightly higher.

Sometimes it's impacted literally by the borrowing and our profile of our borrowing that we already

have.

Thanks for that.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:09:16

It would be quite, I mean, possibly too much work, but it would be quite nice to see, rather

than, always appreciate the table of who we're borrowing from and the lengths and everything,

but it would be quite nice to have maybe some sort of flow chart as well, whereas that loan

And now we're into this loan and especially for some of the short term stuff so you can

see the life of it.

Not forever, not for 30 years but for over a couple of years for myself anyway it would

be quite, make the picture a lot more clearer to look at.

Anyone else have anything they want to raise on either Q1 or Q2 for treasury monitoring?

No?

Okay then, we receive a note, both those reports.

Thank you, I appreciate it, it's a massive, very difficult world.

8 Treasury Management 2024/25 - Quarter Two

Hopefully one day get my head around entirely.

9 Budget Strategy 2025/26

Okay, so that was item 7 and 8, so now we move on to item 9.

So the budget strategy including the consultation and the timeline.

So Lydia do you want to introduce?

Lydia Morrison - 1:10:28

Yeah I mean all of you will be used to us bringing this budget strategy to you.

We bring a little bit of context of what's happening nationally, locally, some of the

pressures that we are on, some of the things we are taking into consideration.

Again we try to bring it to you just to let you know some of the things that we have discussed.

we've had the Star Chambers,

and the processes that we're going forward.

We have changed it a little bit,

and we're hoping to continue to be able to align

coming and reporting here in advance of community cabinet,

and we are looking at committee dates for next year

to make sure that we're misaligned a little bit this year.

Again, it's a comprehensive report

and hopefully gives you the tone and the context of what we're working with

and what we hope to achieve with the Executive

This is, again, to reiterate, it isn't an officer budget, this is your executives budget,

we just facilitate their presentation and bring it here for your comments.

Thank you for that. Jonathan?

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:11:29

Jonathan Smith - 1:11:31

Thank you, Chair. If I may add, I think the numbering has gone, when the report's been

submitted to committee services, I think their software has completely changed the numbering,

so apologies for that, we will make sure that's right when it goes to cabinet, so just a clerical

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:11:49

Thanks for that. Well just to say, I mean, when we received this paper 12 months ago,

the medium term financial strategy or the MTFS was not as in a reasonable place as it

is in this budget paper today. So, a lot of hard work over the last 12 months to get us

to this position. And on that I'm sure Tim wants to say something. Oh wow, there we go.

Look at that. Okay, so I'll open it up to members for if they have any questions, comments,

concerns or queries they want to raise with regards to either the timetable, the growth

and savings proposals. Councillor Davies. Yeah, on the growth and savings, I think there

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:12:40

One was there's a line in there about

hide pool removal of cash payments.

I'm just wondering what that is,

and if we're talking about meaning

that people can't pay cash anymore,

that might be something that that

residents would be concerned about.

And the second is around the budget for.

Play play areas and maintenance

and in the commentary it says that

that the budget was cut, I don't know if the word's significantly,

I'm just trying to check, but last year, and then a budget's gone back in.

So I'm just wondering how that compares to what it was before,

in terms of what it was reduced by

and whether that's putting it back on a footing that it was before

or something much less.

Because obviously play areas are something that is really important to people.

First station, do you have a number of what the table number is?

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:13:40

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:13:44

Yeah, so 48 for play area maintenance and high pool 36.

Thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:13:50

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:13:56

Andrew.

Okay. Andrew?

Andrew Rush - 1:14:04

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Lydia.

Hi, Paul. Yes, we are looking at removing cash payments.

Over the years, the number of cash payments

and cash payment collectors dropped.

We are almost reaching a stage where it's costing us more

to collect the money through security

than actually the money we're taking in.

We've also got a need to replace the safe that we've got,

which means that the actual benefit that we get from carrying cash

has been diminished.

We are looking into that,

but to take the point that we do need to understand what our customers...

There's always going to be few customers who prefer to use cash,

but is it before they have preference

or is it something that they have to do,

which I think is something we need to tease out.

But yes, we are planning to look into that while we're moving cash.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:15:01

And was it 40, 48 play area maintenance?

Anyone have anything on that, on the proposed growth item there?

Thank you chair.

Thank you Councillor Stapleton.

Jonathan Smith - 1:15:20

So yes, I don't have the precise number that it was reduced from as yet.

I can look that up for you and I'll find that information out and provide it to you.

I am aware that obviously as part of the savings exercise that went through last year, part

of transformation and Star Chamber and taking stock and the like, it was reduced significantly

on the basis that it was estimated that would be the level of funding that would be required

to maintain obviously play areas in the district.

But obviously based on the past year, I think this is where the estates team have suggested

actually it's not quite enough and they require a bit more budget.

It's not, I don't believe it's up to the same level,

but I will confirm the precise numbers for you.

Jonathan, any other points?

Yeah, that's good to hear,

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:16:09

because I know there have been instances where it's taken some time

to replace things that have needed attention,

and obviously that means people can't use the equipment,

so that's always a shame.

Just on the cash point about high pool,

I mean, in general, there's a lot of discussion about the use of cash,

making sure that people have got access to things,

and preserving that ability in the round for people.

So, I'd personally be quite concerned about that

in terms of a kind of council facility making that move.

I know we do see it in some kind of areas,

but I think in general we should try and make sure

that people can access things in the round.

Thank you, Councillor Addison.

Councillor Butcher.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:17:00

Cllr James Butcher - 1:17:06

I just wanted to ask about 3 .3v medium -term forecast

and so it's saying deficit forecast for next year,

85 ground, but then a big jump for 26, 27 and a big jump

I just wanted to understand what the basis of the big jump is.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:17:25

The MTFS strategy for 26 -27 being 717.

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:17:32

That's quarterly the MTFS from last year that you approved last year.

What it's saying is that we were forecasting last year the MTFS that next year would be

85 grand and then 2 million, 2 million it was explained through that.

So it's not new numbers.

It's exactly what the MTF was last year, crossing off this year.

Cllr James Butcher - 1:17:53

Yeah, might be the same number, but why is it such a big jump?

The jump was to do the...

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:18:05

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:18:08

And was there also capital financing in 26 -27 for the potential for a civic centre remove

and the start of a two year leisure, 25 million leisure provision?

I think going towards the end of the MTFE set

is quite the deal.

OK.

But I mean, some of that, for the bigger jump for 27 -28,

then that's some of the forecasts that are projecting that.

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:18:42

Yeah, I mean, again, MTFS four -year plan,

it's the guessing with style thing again.

And some of that is based around expecting at that moment

in time that Otterpool would have kicked off and we'd require a certain amount of expenditure,

we'd be borrowing a certain amount of money, we'd be repaying a certain amount, MRP payments,

and putting away provision for those as well. We are now about a year later than we started

to write those numbers then and we're necessarily a year closer to starting it. So that may

well in itself move. But they are big chunky sums of money that you do in terms of getting

to waterfall and we were effectively projecting that we would be borrowing them with some

very big capital costs to allocate against them. Those numbers are going to move. As

you get closer to them you'll see those numbers move and reallocate. So effectively, I think

the point of that is that if we did nothing else, if nothing else had changed, if all

of our predictions were absolutely right, then we would have been facing an £85 ,000

£85 ,000 deficit next year as a starting point and the other years from that we'll

re -profile forward. But yeah, that was part of the discussion. I'm confident that we'll

not be facing £85 ,000 projected loss for next year by the time we get to the end of

those figures. Whether it's up or down on that, people can stare at me but it won't

be any fun.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:20:09

Well, I mean, if all of the growth and savings proposals are approved, then that would be

another 115 on top so that would be a deficit of 200 wouldn't it?

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:20:19

Lydia Morrison - 1:20:30

And business rates, the final settlement from central government hasn't come through and

as you know there is money being provided in addition to previous years. It's still

only a single year settlement. We look forward to the three year settlement. I'm not sure

It would be good news, but it would be a three -year settlement.

It would give us certainty.

So, as I said, we can only base it on the information that we have at the time.

And as you agreed, last November, October,

we are in this transition period with Otacall

around looking at a potential JV partner,

which would help us in the way that we go forward around funding as well.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:21:11

Okay, any other members have anything to raise?

I mean there are a number of savings and growth proposals.

I mean again some of them come back to discussions we were having over quite large percentage

increases for CPI plus quite a lot when I think September CPI was 1 .7 so some quite

large increases compared to that but that's just the way that the contract negotiations

go I'm afraid.

I will say I'm very pleased that we're keeping quite a long consultation period, if you've

if you've not seen that in the timetable,

till the end of 31st January.

Was it? We were very close till the end of January,

which is good, because in the past we've had some

that just went briefly over Christmas and were gone.

So I'm very pleased that we've kept that from last year.

Anything else from members?

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:22:18

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:22:19

Otherwise we'll receive a note like that and move on.

Councillor Credie on to...

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:22:21

I'd just briefly make the point

I really hope there are more than four consultation responses this year and that I'm not the only

Councillor that does so.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:22:31

Dormant lay down members.

So we'll receive and note that with our thanks to the finance team.

Lovely.

10 Fees and Charges 2025/26

And then our last item, the 10th, is the draft fees and charges.

So again, this is the cabinet paper that will go to cabinet next week.

We will obviously receive and note the report, but obviously we have our cabinet member here.

So if there is anything in the fees and charges that you would like cabinet to possibly rethink,

then this is your opportunity to say so.

So I'll open it up to you members.

Did you want to say something first?

Yeah, if I could go first for two reasons.

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:23:19

Firstly, because it's my partner's birthday

and if I don't hit the Bovary tap,

I call to do eight, I'm a dead man.

But also just to flag things,

obviously what we have aimed to do here

is that we're looking at inflationary increases

in most instances.

We are looking at cost recovery,

so where services cost less than they cost to provide,

we've been looking at trying to make sure

that we're picking up on those.

One area where we would have gone by a slightly higher percentage increase is in parking charges.

I'm not hiding that, so it's saying it out loud there.

But one thing that we are very specifically doing on that is that we want residents to

be protected from that as much as possible.

So you'll see that the residents parking permit there, we are proposing a 0 % rise.

So the resident's car parking permit, which allows any resident to get it for £20 a quarter,

means you can park between 2 -3 hours a day in any district car park.

If you get a £20 a quarter permit, that is essentially one hour a week's worth of parking,

but you can have 14 -21 hours a week's worth of parking for it.

A resident who is using district car parks should absolutely buy one of those things.

It makes your car parking in the district cheaper than for any other resident anywhere

else in Kent.

It is the best parking deal out there because that's what we're trying to do is allow our

residents to go to our towns and to go and shop and move around.

Are we trying to take more income off those who are visiting our district at that stage

and visiting our facilities?

Absolutely we are.

So, but we are trying to absolutely protect our residents in that and make sure that that

permit's there.

I don't think that the take -up of that permit is anywhere near the number of people that

should be doing it.

I think our council should be telling people about that more and telling people that genuinely

there's a great deal here, use it.

So that's, in terms of parking, please do for our residents and for the people who you

represent make it absolutely clear to them that there is a thing here which they should

adhere. If they are saying it is costing me a lot of money in parking each day they should

absolutely be looking at this permit because they can save themselves a fortune. Thank

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:25:54

you. Thanks for that Councillor Perrotta. I don't drive so unfortunately I can't, but

indeed it is good value.

Right Members, fees and charges.

Anyone have anything they wish to raise?

Councillor Wing.

Cllr John Wing - 1:26:12

I'll very quickly regard Councillor Prater's urgent engagement.

I've got a little query from leaseholders in the area.

It says all fees proceed in line with inflation.

A couple of people have been in contact with me, concerned that they don't mind the annual

fee, you know leaseholders fee which they expect to pay.

But when they've had work done, there's a different fee put on top of that which seems to be rather high.

I mean I don't expect the answer tonight, whether somebody can look into it and just get back to me.

Basically it's on top, you know, say you had a doorbell change which is one of them.

You obviously have to pay your portion of the work because you're an leaseholder.

But then there's another fee put on top of that.

I wonder if it's a sort of admin fee for offers of time. Would that be possible?

I think we will have to take that.

Yeah, sure.

I don't expect nothing.

I'd be nice to know that because they're a bit concerned about it.

Okay, thank you.

That's all.

Thank you, Councillor Wing.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:27:05

One thing that sort of leapt out to me.

Building control.

There's no sort of fees from this year.

So, it's just, you know, is this a new thing that's being introduced?

Where are the sort of the fees, sort of, where are we benchmarking them from?

Is this something that other authorities have done historically that we've never done?

Or is this due to new legislation we have to start bringing in?

Just some context on that would be quite helpful.

Folkestone & Hythe Officer - 1:27:59

Thank you, Chair. The information I was given by Building Control is that they have it done

separately but for completeness going forward. That's why we've pulled it into the fees and

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:28:15

Maybe when the report goes to cabinet if there could be just something in there that says,

you know, because people, the public will look at it and say well there was never any

fees before and just some context as to why because I mean it's about three pages where

the fee for this year is nothing or blank and obviously we've got quite a, some of the

fees are quite high so just to put some context into that would be quite helpful.

Folkestone & Hythe Officer - 1:28:41

I'll get the information from the building control because they should have it all charged.

That would be really helpful.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:28:47

Councillor Davidson.

It would just be useful to talk a bit more about the lifeline charges

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:28:55

I think.

So private lifeline charges it says service areas proposing achievable market rates.

I'm not sure how that links to inflation

or what has been determined around that.

Then there are four new charges being introduced as well.

Some of the differences look quite significant.

Then in the housing part of it,

there is a new...

I think it was under here.

Yeah, a deterrent charge for controlled entry visit,

which is quite a substantial fee.

So I'm just wondering what that's responding to.

And obviously what we don't want is,

if that is where people genuinely need some assistance,

if it's about that, it's not, you're shaking your head.

So just be helpful to understand what that is.

Thanks.

Thereabout, where we really, really need to gain access to the premises

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:29:58

and they are refusing to give us access to those premises.

It's not about saving people's life at that stage, or certainly not the person who's not

letting us in.

It's about situations whereby we absolutely need for health and safety purposes to accept

access to the building.

So for instance gas certification whereby we are being denied access in order to provide

the certification which we require with a different hat on to make sure that our housing

is up to spec, but where there comes a period whereby

if somebody has refused for a period or a period of time

whereby that needs to be done, then there is a charge for that,

and that's where it is.

I haven't got the detail around lifeline to hand,

but I'm very happy to make sure that we provide some.

Yeah, thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:30:47

I think it's just because that line is sitting

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:30:51

under the lifeline section, it was a bit confusing,

so maybe it should be separated out.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:30:57

Members, anything else?

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:31:03

Or are we happy to receive that report?

OK?

OK, lovely.

Right, thank you very much for your time this evening.

And have a... enjoy the rest of your evening at the Bovary Tap.

We'll all see you there in about 15 minutes.

We welcome your comments

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Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee - Tuesday 26 November 2024, 6:00pm - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting

Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-CommitteeTuesday, 26th November 2024 at 6:00pm

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Twitter

Forums

Speakers

Feedback

Votes

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:00:04

1 Apologies for absence

Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:00:57

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:00:59

2 Declarations of interest

Cllr John Wing - 0:01:12

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:01:13

3 Quarter 2 Performance Report 2024-25

Cllr James Butcher - 0:01:18

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:01:19

Gavin Edwards - 0:01:29

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:02:56

Gavin Edwards - 0:03:06

Gavin Edwards - 0:03:10

Cllr James Butcher - 0:05:27

Gavin Edwards - 0:06:29

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:07:01

Cllr John Wing - 0:07:04

Gill Butler - 0:07:58

Cllr John Wing - 0:12:09

Gill Butler - 0:12:37

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:12:58

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:13:01

Gill Butler - 0:13:45

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:16:21

Gill Butler - 0:17:37

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:18:11

Gill Butler - 0:19:01

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:20:07

Cllr James Butcher - 0:20:12

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:20:42

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:21:15

Gill Butler - 0:23:29

Gavin Edwards - 0:24:18

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:24:53

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:25:00

Gavin Edwards - 0:25:31

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:25:48

4 General Fund Revenue Budget Monitoring - 2nd Quarter (Q2) 2024/25

Lydia Morrison - 0:26:24

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:27:23

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:27:26

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:31:55

Lydia Morrison - 0:31:58

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:33:04

Cllr James Butcher - 0:33:24

Lydia Morrison - 0:34:08

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:38:17

Jonathan Smith - 0:40:48

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:41:14

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:43:18

Lydia Morrison - 0:43:31

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:44:08

Cllr James Butcher - 0:44:22

Jonathan Smith - 0:44:55

Cllr James Butcher - 0:45:07

Jonathan Smith - 0:45:32

Jonathan Smith - 0:46:47

Cllr James Butcher - 0:46:58

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:47:24

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:48:42

Lydia Morrison - 0:49:13

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:50:00

5 General Fund Capital Programme Budget Monitoring 2024/25 - 2nd Quarter (Q2) 2024/25

Lydia Morrison - 0:50:34

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:50:49

Cllr James Butcher - 0:51:07

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:51:24

Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee
Tuesday, 26th November 2024 at 6:00pm