Local Government Reform public meeting - Monday 17 March 2025, 6:00pm - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting

Local Government Reform public meeting
Monday, 17th March 2025 at 6:00pm 

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  1. Slide 1
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  28. Microphone Seven
  29. Microphone Twenty-two
  30. Microphone Twenty-two
  31. Microphone Five
  32. Microphone Twenty-two
  33. Mr Andy Vanburen
  34. Microphone Thirteen
  35. Microphone Five
  36. Microphone Six
  37. Microphone Thirteen
  38. Microphone thirty-seven
  39. Microphone Forty-one
  40. Microphone Thirteen
  41. Mr Andy Vanburen
  42. Microphone Thirty-six
  43. Microphone Thirty-six
  44. Microphone Twenty-two
  45. Microphone Six
  46. Microphone Six
  47. Webcast Finished
Slide selection

of the council and I'm joined here by Jim Martin.
Had to think about your surname then.
He always insists on calling him Jim, not the leader.
So I had to think then, what am I referring you to tonight?
Anyway, so we're going to do a bit of a double act tonight.
I thought I would lead into a fairly quick fire
but nonetheless hopefully informative slides
just to set the context and to explain a little bit.
And then Jim will take over to talk about the latter parts
and to take any questions that are in the chamber.
We have this roaming mic, so we'll do our best
to make sure that everyone can hear.
We also have had some questions submitted remotely
in advance of the meeting, so we'll try and address those.
Notice I say address as opposed to answer
because some of this is quite fast moving,
so we don't have all the answers to lots of questions at the moment.
But nonetheless, we're still really, really interested
in your emerging views, information,
any issues that you want us to take and to find out more about.
So I'm very, very grateful, as I say,
for you giving up your time this evening to come and join us.
So, shall I crack on?
Yep? Okay.
I think, Jake, you're driving.
Okay, so two things, two significant things were announced,
and I think one of them took us a little bit by surprise.
This is back at the back end of 2024.
And sometimes people are calling these terms interchangeably,
but they are two very distinct things.
One of which is devolution,
and the other is local government reorganisation.
So devolution, in a nutshell,
is around the delegation of powers and funding from central government
to a different appropriate level.
So that is devolution.
Reorganization is actually around the organizations themselves that deliver,
so councils in this context.
And we were advised in the white paper on the 16th of December last year
that the government's policy was to not only devolve more powers and funding out from central government,
preferably to mayors and mayoral strategic authorities,
so that's the devolution bit,
but also to remove two -tier form of government.
So that's where you have a county council
and you have district councils.
So that's what's in short term called a two -tier area.
And of course, as you know, in Kent and Medway,
we have one small unitary council
up in North Kent, Medway Council,
which has about a population of about 280 ,000 residents up there.
Then the rest of the county is covered by Kent County Council and 12 district or borough
councils.
So that's the sort of architecture, the structural architecture that we've got in this county.
And the white paper set out the intention to move to a single tier of local government
responsible for all services delivered in that area.
And so we're going to take you through some of that very quickly tonight,
and then hopefully we'll be able to answer your questions.
But this presentation is largely focused on what's lovingly called LGR,
so Local Government Reorganisation,
because that is the most pressing timetable that government has set for us.
So if you move on, Jake.
So this is just a picture really of what I've described.
But of course we have, and hopefully a number of you
either represent or are aware of your town and parish councils. So not only do we have
Medway unitary authority up there in the lighter colour, we then have the 12 districts or boroughs
that cover all of Kent covered of course by KCC. And for our district we have a number,
we are fully perished which is a technical term for the whole area being covered either
by a town council, a parish council,
or a meeting of the parish.
So we are one of the areas that has all that coverage
through the different layers.
So what can be confusing to some
is around what services, what local services
are delivered and by whom.
So on the first column you've got typically
the services that are delivered by district and boroughs.
And the column to the right, as you're looking at it,
are typically those services that are covered
by the county council.
Of course, there are some discretionary services as well
that we offer if there's funding and political will.
And that largely is a sort of,
it gives you a flavor for who does what.
But there clearly are some things
that where there is an overlap.
and those that you know may well understand that the district is responsible for waste
collection, that we are not responsible for waste disposal. That is a county council responsibility.
So some services are split and others aren't. Same with planning. We are responsible for
certain planning functions, but other planning functions we're not, and that can give rise
sometimes to some confusion.
So, what do we know so far?
And as I say, it is an emerging picture
and we are receiving more information and guidance from MHCLG,
which is a government department that's responsible for local government.
But we received not only the white paper in December,
we also then received, or Jim received two letters on the 5th of February
that gave further information.
So, the first was a deadline of the 10th of January
for Kent to indicate its interest in being part
of the devolution priority programme.
So I'm really sorry if these are strange terms.
But the first letter we received on the 5th of February
from the Minister was that Kent and Medway
had not been selected to be part of the devolution priority programme. But rather they wanted
us to do local government reorganisation first. So devolution is still on the table for Kent,
it's just we're not being prioritised for that first or to run concurrently with LGR.
The second letter that Jim received was directly to Jim as leader of a sovereign body and that
was inviting proposals for reorganisation and that gave further information but also
importantly invited an interim plan to be submitted to the Minister before or on the
21st of March, so that will be this Friday, with full proposals submitted by the end of
November of this year. And the future timeline at the moment is not firm, but our expected
timeline is that shadow unitaries are expected by May 2027, with the new unitaries going
live the following year. So it tends to be a 12 -month period of grace, a transition year.
And the planning assumption that MHCLG have got at the moment is that the two tier areas
that they're working with, and we're in one of those particular parts of cohorts,
will be having shadow unitaries by May 27 with the new unitaries going live, as I say
12 months later in what's technically called vesting day.
So, what are the guidelines that they've issued for us?
First of all, they want a single tier of local government.
They want us to achieve efficiencies and improve capacity and withstand financial shocks.
They're obviously wanting us to maintain and deliver high quality, sustainable public
services to meet local needs, to support any future devolution arrangements from the mayor
that might be at the county level, the Kent area level, and to enable stronger community
engagement and importantly make sure that we keep neighbourhood empowerment and connectivity
really strong.
So that's what's been set out for us in an invitation and what we will be debating hopefully
with you later on this evening and also then through this week before submission is made.
So where are we now?
Well, all the councils, so that's KCC, Medway Council and the 12 boroughs and districts
have been working really closely for a number of months on this now, and we've been considering
whether we can make a single submission to meet the deadline on the 21st of this month.
The options that are being considered are still moving around, so the options in terms
of geography and numbers have not yet concluded. There are some sort of short lists that refer
to three or four, and we'll talk through those in a moment, but there may well be other options
that emerge over the coming few weeks and months.
And it's unclear at the moment, as we stand here before you tonight, it's unclear about
how we will be brought together and how we'll be grouped as districts and boroughs.
And in fact, that will be a decision for the Minister.
So whilst we can give our views and we can listen to the views of you and other elected
members and we can feed those up, ultimately the decision maker will be the Minister, so
Minister Jim McMahon.
And there are very, very many other unknowns at the moment through this evolving picture.
So because we're not sure about who we are going to be merging with, who we're going
to be partnering with, we're not sure on the geography, so we're unclear at the moment
about the ratios of councillor to population numbers or councillors to electorate numbers.
The role of town and parish councils was referenced in the white paper, and if you're interested
in that, there is a, albeit, passing reference, but we're expecting further information from
the Kent Association of Local Councils.
So CALC have been, again, very proactive in working with us through their national association,
NALC.
So we're waiting to hear what the government's policy stance is on enhancing town and parish
councils. Still lots of debate about how do we disaggregate county functions. We have
Kent highways, we have adult social care, we have children's services. We're unsure
about whether they're going to be disaggregated three, four ways on what basis. And of course,
we are still working very closely with some of our partners, so Kent Fire and Rescue,
Kent Police, and our health colleagues in the acute trusts, all of whom have slightly
different geographies I'll show you in a moment.
And then of course, a very important one is about
alignment or harmonization, they call it, of council tax,
because each district sets its own council tax.
So there's some uncertainty around that,
as well as things like treatment of debt,
which I know we've had a question answered,
Jim will answer that in a little more.
And so, if we move on.
So I'm just gonna flick through some of the geographies,
just to bring some life and spatial distribution
to the debate. But as I say, nothing's been decided. These are only just some options
that seem to have found favour with some. There's still quite a lot of analysis to do.
So at the moment, there is just one configuration of three unitaries that's being looked at.
And that's just, as you can see on the slide, North, East, and West Kent as the three unitary
authorities. The next one Jake is this is where we go into the four structures, four
potential structures now. So there you have the North Kent which covers Dartford, Gravesham
and just Medway, doesn't include Swale. But Swale, Canterbury and Fannock come over to
the East Kent with ourselves, Dover and Ashford being referred to as a sort of South Kent
authority and then West Kent which is the Seven Oaks, Tunbridge Wells and Tunbridge
and Moorling and Maidstone clustering. So that is one of the options if the minister
is minded to go to four. But there's another option which slightly cuts up in a slightly
different way. So you'll see that the East Kent authority in this example is the sort
of some of, if you've been working around here
for some time, the old East Kent of the Dover,
Canterbury and the Sunnett.
And then a Mid Kent which includes ourselves,
Ashford and going up through to Swale.
And then West Kent is fairly settled,
they still want to be four of them.
And again North Kent just has a Dartford,
Grovesham and Medway, again no Swale.
And then next one, Jake, is again
a slightly different configuration.
Still the same North Kent,
but West Kent at this point loses Maidstone.
So you have a Maidstone, Ashford and Swale
Mid Kent authority.
And then ourselves are with Dover, Canterbury and Fannert.
And I think those are all the options.
Those are the options.
So if we just go back over them
or just so you can quickly see them,
I'll go back to the first one.
So one more, that's it.
So there's a three option.
Looks something like that.
Next one Jake.
Four option.
Next one.
Another four option.
Another four option.
So, and there may be others,
because there's no unanimity of view,
there's no consensus yet about geography.
So, there's only so much we can do at the moment in terms of, so what does that mean
for either disaggregation of services, cost of services, or whom we will be merging with.
So if we go on to some more slides, just some wrap, going to wrap up now, because it's better
to have debate and discussion.
Just some other maps, just again to be mindful of as we go into all of this.
There are other boundaries to consider.
Now again, these may not be necessarily statutory boundaries, they're just operational boundaries
So there are things that could change, that could evolve,
but nonetheless there is still disruption and change involved.
So, adult social care at the moment,
and this map doesn't, to be fair, break down Medway's team structure,
but this is the configuration of the teams for adult social care.
And the next one, Jake, this is children's care.
Again, it's excluded Medway because they've just been able to access data.
So again, a different configuration from adult social care.
Next one, Jake, please.
Education commissioning.
Different area based, again.
And health and care partnerships.
Again, really important in terms of health geography,
in terms of acute hospitals and travel and choices that residents have.
But again, a different form of configuration.
Again, not following district boundaries
in any of the groupings.
Police, different again.
Albeit we still have one police force,
but in terms of just the area structure, it's different.
And then Jake, fire and rescue,
which is again a much more detailed map
and different split in terms of their geography
that they currently work to.
But again, just one Kent Fire Rescue Service, which is helpful.
One ICB, which is a health board, and one Kent Police, which is helpful in that respect,
particularly when you consider what else is elsewhere in the country.
So anything else, Jake?
Next steps.
Shall I just wrap this up, Jim, and then we'll open it up to you?
So next steps, as I say, this Friday, the 21st of March, we're expecting to make a submission,
a single submission for all of Kent, but of course we're having our discussions all through
this week. There will be probably no detail on the geography because there's no agreement
yet, and the update to government, we've been told, is a check -in point, it's not a decision
point. We're also unclear at the time at which they're going to respond to us. We don't know
whether it's going to be within a week or a month. We know that they are prioritizing
other areas in the country such as Surrey. So I guess they will prioritise feedback to
places like that first. But as soon as we get any feedback from the officials, we will
obviously be making that available. I'm very happy to keep up the communications with you
all and we've got various things on our website already. Jane has already done a good job
in getting various bits out there already for us. And then through the rest of the summer,
we expect then to be working really hard
until the 28th of November,
where there'll be a full submission for the whole of Kent.
Now, there may well be more than one submission.
I guess it depends on the work,
and it depends how much agreement
there is across Kent about that.
So, at the moment, it would be nice to think
that we could agree on a single submission,
but there is no requirement
for us to have a single submission.
And then Jake, are we coming to hear?
So that's about it from me.
We really wanted to have, well it was Jim's desire
to have the session with you all tonight,
because we wanted to hear about your emerging views
or your thoughts, questions.
And as I say, we have invited some questions
that have been received earlier before the meeting.
So it's not really very well scripted, this bit.
So you'll have to just bear with me.
We're going to do a double act, aren't we, Jim?
You're going to lead it. I'll just answer what I'm asked to answer.
But over to you.
Thank you.
Good evening, everyone.
I have got some prepared questions people have emailed,
but I'm very, very happy to answer any questions that anyone may have.
Just to sort of fill in the next bit, if you like.
So our submission goes in on the 21st of March.
Then the government are giving themselves
until the 28th of November
before we have to put our final submission in.
Not entirely sure what we're gonna do to fill the time,
or whether we're gonna change radically.
but it will be the 28th of November when our final submission goes in.
Now, what happens then is that the Minister will publish
what we anticipate to be a minded two.
So he will then produce the maps and list who's in what unitary
on a... the minister is minded to...
and this will then go out for consultation.
So this is when the public get their say.
Now, don't misunderstand me, don't get a choice.
They can comment on what the minister is minded to.
So the consultation will run from, we anticipate,
again it's all a bit blurry, from January to May,
and then the consultation will end.
So we're anticipating that we will be told finally
which unitary we're actually in around August.
August 26th, something like that.
Now, just so you're clear,
Just to go back to...
I got really, really confused about all this stuff,
particularly using the word devolution
and local government reorganisation in the same context.
Devolution is about introducing a tier of government.
It's about introducing a mayor.
The government feel that the mayoral system works very well.
They've got very successful mayors.
Andy Burnham in Manchester, London,
they've got a list of successful mayors.
So they're very keen on the mayoral model.
And that is what devolution is.
It's devolving powers from Whitehall to the Mayor.
So that's the devolution bit, yeah?
Now, if we were on the priority programme, we would be talking about devolution,
but we're not on the priority programme, so we're not talking about devolution.
All we're actually talking about is local government reorganisation.
So for us, devolution is somewhere... some way in the distance.
They've got to get some devolution sorted out,
because there's loads of stuff in this legislation
that needs the mayor to tie the top end, if you like.
So we're a bit unclear with regard to that,
but everything that we're discussing tonight
is nothing to do with devolution.
It's all to do with local government reorganisation.
So reforming the district councils into larger unitaries
is local government reorganisation.
The devolution will come at some other stage.
So at the moment, as far as we can work out,
once we get told which unitaries are which,
it is likely, and this is not confirmed,
but it's really the only possible date that we think is possible,
is May 27 will be elections to the unitaries.
So we think...
So don't shoot me if I'm wrong.
Paul, I don't know whether you've had an inside track on this,
but we think that the election for the unitaries will be in May 27.
And they will exist as shadow authorities.
So they will exist as shadow authorities for a year,
because in May 27 we will be abolished,
and KCC will be abolished.
So the unitaries are clear then to take over,
but there will be this transition year, if you like,
where the shadow authority will take powers, assets, functions from us,
powers, assets and functions from KCC.
So that will be their year of in the shadows, as it were.
Then, we think, again in May 28,
there will be their vesting day when they spring to life
and they will become legally responsible for it.
And that is when we, we think, will finally disappear.
Now, what this means is that folks in High District Council
will be extended by a year. But we don't know that yet, do we?
We don't know that. But it's logically the only way that it can work, we think.
So again, don't kill me if I'm wrong.
So kind of, you know, that's where we are.
We as a council, we're finished. We won't continue.
KCC won't continue. So to say this is a major change is an understatement.
It's not just the sticker on your bin that someone else will be collecting your bin.
It will be someone else's maintaining the highway,
it is someone else will be running your schools,
it is someone else who will be managing adult social care,
someone else who will be managing children's social care.
So it is going to be very, very, very different.
The vast majority of people will only really, I hope,
see this as a coming together of services.
So the vast majority of people don't really engage with the council
except to collect the rubbish,
or if they've got a planning application
or if someone dumps a car outside their house, things like that.
There are sections of the community, however,
who are fully engaged with the council,
particularly those receiving adult social care or children's social care.
Anyone who's got children at school, for example,
will be very engaged in the way that their school is run.
So I'm hoping one of the pluses on this
will be that there will be a coming together of services.
So that Tony here is a KCC counsellor.
If you ring Tony and you say,
''My bin got missed.''
He's a district councillor as well, so he's not very good,
because he deals with both.
But if you ring a KCC councillor and say, ''My bin got missed.''
You say, ''I can't help you, you'll have to ring your district councillor.''
They ring me as a district councillor and say,
''There's a pothole in the road, it needs filling.''
I say, ''I can't help you, you'll have to ring your KCC councillor.''
So there will be some upsides
in terms of the drawing together
of council in the broadest terms, services.
Hopefully a one -stop shop, but we'll have to see how it goes.
So I'm very, very happy to answer questions.
There won't be a stony silence, because I've got plenty of questions
that have arrived on the email.
So if you do have a question, stick your hand up and I will get to you,
but I'll start off the sheet, if that's okay,
People have been good enough to type and send me a question.
So the first question is,
will it mean fewer councillors for Folkestone Hyatt and Romney Marsh?
If so, how will this help meeting local needs
as councillors will have more people to represent, so less time to help?
Well, it's a really, really good point,
because at the moment there are...
We've got about 118 ,000 people in this district and we have 36 councillors, 30 in this chamber
and six of our KCC colleagues.
So there's 36 councillors.
It works out roughly that each councillor, just as a straight division, is 3 ,000 people
per councillor.
This is likely to go up dramatically.
We don't know this because the Minister hasn't told us yet,
but it's likely that in electing the unitaries,
we'll be using the KCC divisions
and there will be two councillors per division
or three councillors per division.
The reason why I'm saying those numbers is because
depending on what size of unitary we're in,
However many we're with.
When you multiply them up,
we've got 30 councillors in this chamber
and it's relatively small.
KCC, I think, 81?
81.
And that's pretty tough there.
It's difficult to manage that number of people.
So the government feel that the maximum size of a council chamber
shouldn't go over 100.
So when you do the multiplication up,
we'll probably be...
If we have three...
councillors per division across...
I think there's 31 or 32 KCC divisions.
So if you've got three, you'll end up with 96,
which is pretty up there.
But if it's 2, it's 64, something like that.
So I can't be precise about any of this,
because it's not our decision, we'll be told this.
But that's kind of where we were.
So this is why I say it's an erosion of local democracy,
because there will be less councillors for more people.
And that's all I know about that.
Anyone got a burning question?
Sorry, I'll come down then.
Microphone Seven - 0:30:25
Good evening. Andy Close, Hawkins.
Do you envisage that there will be redundancies within the councils?
If they're not going to have a district council,
and it's going to be merging to perhaps three or four unit councils,
do you envisage there will be redundancies?
And if so, will that mean there'll be a shed load of cash
being paid out in redundancy money?
where does that money come from?
Also, what happens to the assets of the District Council?
This building, Foulka, Otterpool, Western Hanger Castle,
Prince's Parade, you know, the list is endless according to the asset register
of land and buildings that are owned by the council.
What happens to all that? Thank you.
For sure. I'll kick off and then if you want to add you can talk.
So in terms of...
The number of bins to be collected remain exactly the same.
The number of schools will remain exactly the same.
So the number of verges to be cut will be exactly the same.
If I was a cynic, I would say this is just an old -fashioned
moving around the pieces on the chessboard by the civil service.
I genuinely, personally, can't see any saving at all.
In fact, I think we're probably going to have to employ more people
Because KCC coordinate a whole host of services.
Susan put them up on the board before.
If we've got three or four unitaries,
those same services will have to be disaggregated out three or four times.
So at the moment we've got one highways authority,
we'll have four highways authorities.
So, while the numbers being produced look short term,
there's a huge cost to this, massive cost to this.
Long term, it looks better if you have fewer unitaries.
That's the way the numbers look at the moment.
The saving, it's a very easy thing to say.
that you would have...
Do you need... Huge respect, Susan.
Do you need 14 chief executives in Ken?
Do you need 14 monitoring officers?
Huge respect, obviously.
We need you more than anything at any time.
So, notionally, that's where the saving might occur.
But of course, because you're disaggregating KCC services
to individual unitaries,
you're actually going to have to employ more people to deal with those.
So, personally, I don't think there's going to be...
There won't be a penny saved for maybe seven, eight, nine, ten years.
Something like that.
So, I don't know. With regard to assets, that's a really interesting question.
It's a question I don't have the answer to.
Now, if, say for example, and these are just examples, don't pin anything,
we're very, very proud in this district of our parks,
our blue flag parks in Fosun, East Cliff, Jocks pitch, the Royal Military Canal.
If we are in a unitary, just say for example with Canterbury,
Yeah?
And the Unitrees headquarters are in Canterbury.
And they've got a World Heritage site in Canterbury.
So when it comes to allocating the money in supporting heritage assets,
who's going to get the cash?
So I'm really concerned about some, not necessarily our principal assets,
but maybe some of our not so well -publicised assets.
It's a really, really big question.
and one I haven't got an answer to, but believe me, it's at the forefront in our mind.
There could be some desegregation by us.
If there are a safe pair of hands,
so perhaps our larger town councils
may be able to take over some of our assets in terms of land, etc.,
we don't know any of that because we haven't been able to start that work yet.
but it is in the forefront of our mind, believe me.
Sorry, so you had a question I think?
Yes, Graham Horner from Stanford.
Microphone Twenty-two - 0:35:30
I've got a few, I don't know whether you want them all at once.
The first thing, to pick you up on the chess board,
which is probably closer to shuffling with deck chairs on the Titanic,
given the financial state of the government at the moment.
The first question is about the so -called single tier of government.
I should know this as a member of CPRE.
Where do these strategic authorities slot into that?
Surely they will have some say over what the unitaries are doing.
That's the first question.
Let me just answer that one.
Turn your mic off and I'll answer that one very quickly.
Susan put up the map in terms of the police, the fire brigade, etc.
And that consultation is ongoing at the moment.
There are very, very different views around it.
Personally, once we get down to talking about geography,
for me it's really, really, really important
that we are in the same unitary as Ashford, for example,
because of the William Harvey.
I can't go further than the William Harvey, do you know what I mean?
So I will be arguing that corner,
simply because...
I realise that we use hospital services in Canterbury, etc, etc,
but the William Harvey is really, really important to us,
and so that's why I think it should be in the same unitary as us.
But those conversations with the police, with the fire brigade,
are all happening, not with us, but they are all happening with government.
Microphone Twenty-two - 0:37:19
OK, I don't know whether that actually answered my question,
but it's probably not a question for you, it's more of a question.
As regards the splitting up, the two points,
it seems to me that if I was here
and I had some kind of responsibility for someone in Ramsgate.
I know nothing about Ramsgate, well, I've been there obviously,
but it seems to me that the boundaries of these areas ought to be set
so that the geographical extents are minimised,
so that you've got a chance that people throughout that unitary
have some sense of what goes on in the four corners of their unitary.
And from that point of view, I would prefer to see four unitaries rather than three.
And the other thing is there don't seem to have been any kind of...
I don't know how the district boundaries were set way back when,
but there don't seem to have been any kind of attempt to throw the whole thing out
and say, let's draw some new boundaries, be rational.
Because populations have shifted over the years.
I mean, we've got this Austin Park thing right on a boundary, for instance.
Does that make any sense?
Well, you don't like that idea to split us off from Ashley.
So, those are just my comments on those.
John, can you answer that?
Arguably, this is the most important question of all.
Because if you look at our economic geography or our health...
All of these, there are loads and loads of maps
that are on this slide deck that Susan hasn't showed us.
Education, travel for education, travel for work, fire, all of that.
But the most important thing is cultural identity.
And it's just what defines us as people, it's what defines Folkestone as a place,
it's what defines Hyde as a place.
And the point you make is absolutely well made and it is completely reversible
in terms of what connection do the people in Broadstairs have with the people in Lyd?
What connection do the people in New Church have with the people in Ramsgate?
Can we define ourselves within these areas now and create a sense of place?
There will be others that say,
Jim, you're over -egging the pudding here, these are just administrative boundaries.
But they're not.
They're places that we strongly identify with.
And that's a whole hurdle that we have to get over in terms of our place.
Let me just pick you up on a comment that you made.
The reason why I think that Ashford, Folkestone Hive and Dover will be put together,
whether we choose to or whether we're part of a larger unitary, whether we're not,
is because of our piece of nationally important infrastructure,
which is the M20, Sevington, Ashford International,
the Channel Tunnel and the Dover ports.
That binds us together as a nationally important piece of infrastructure
and it seems to me that any government, when dividing up Kent,
would look to group us together, whether that includes Canterbury,
Thanet and we're in a three or whatever,
but I can't believe that the government would decide
on some other formation for us.
It would make no sense.
Tony, sorry, I think you had a question?
Thank you.
Microphone Five - 0:41:31
That works. It's working good.
Yeah, a good point I have to make is that Kent employs over 10 ,000 people.
They are mostly delivery orientated.
So I can't sit making an awful lot of difference.
We still have schools, special needs, all that sort of thing to do.
But it's all about getting that delivery closer possibly to the communities.
The big question to me, and I've still not only answered this,
is what we can do about parish councils.
Because the gap would be too big to go from big unitary,
an agreementary, to a parish council.
So I'm very interested in the concept of area committees.
Now where I come from, Robley Marsh, we see ourselves as unique in Robley Marsh,
and I have about eight parish councils there which could club together
and have an area committee and take some of those services back down to grassroots.
It's a scary process we've got to go through.
But when it comes to strategic things, this is where the mayor comes in,
like flood... I won't say this.
Water management, flood management, it's a strategic direction.
And I think that goes for highways as well.
So that will be taken up to the mayor,
but the operation and how it's delivered, we dam to the unitaries.
Absolutely. Tony's quite right.
There are things like the flooding on Romney Marsh
and the internal drainage board,
that not only will go across unitaries, but will also go across counties.
So it's not like Donald Trump's going to build a wall.
We will be cooperating still with our neighbours.
and ultimately, in terms of specifically around Kent highways,
if we had a route to a mayor,
then that may be something that we could leave to the mayor,
to have a mayoral highways authority
and relieve the pressure on the duplication that would inevitably occur
if the individual unitaries tried to do it.
Any other... I'll go back... Oh, you're back again! Go on!
Microphone Twenty-two - 0:44:00
I was going to ask about these area committees.
What exactly... Is there a model for these things?
Or is it just an idea that something will have to substitute on a more local level?
That's exactly what it is.
It's an idea that we will have to substitute on a more local level.
But importantly, as Susan quite rightly said,
we are fully perished as a district.
There are other districts in Kent that are visibly perishing
as fast as they can.
But we are heavily perished
and we have some very, very good tan councils.
So, in terms of safe pairs of hands, you know, Hawkins,
Hive, Folkestone, I don't want to leave anybody out,
so I'll have to go through the whole list,
but Romney Marsh, you know, Romney I mean, everyone, sorry.
Northdown.
Northdown, absolutely.
So, really, really good town councils.
So we are actually better placed than others.
So for example Margay at the moment is trying to create a town council.
So there are places that there's a rush now to try and do stuff,
because if you don't have a sovereign body you can't transfer an asset to them.
So there's loads of that stuff going on.
We're in a fortunate position that traditionally we've always been well perished
and I think that will be an advantage to us.
Can I take one off of the... Oh sorry, Jenny.
Mr Andy Vanburen - 0:45:58
Can I just say one thing that you haven't mentioned is the population,
minimum population, because that makes a difference to the number of unities, doesn't it?
Yes.
Thank you very much, Jenny.
OK, so we're on fairly controversial territory now.
So the white paper says 500 ,000 as a minimum number for a unitary.
Now that's what it says.
No civil servant has ever contradicted it,
but every time Jim McMahon, the minister responsible, speaks,
he says he's flexible.
If you look at the maps that we've done,
if you've got insomnia or something,
but if you look at the maps you will see that West Kent stays the same.
So, Tombridge and Malin, Tombridge Wells, Sevenoaks, Maedston,
whether you take a three unitary model or a four unitary model,
they stay together, they're not moving.
And there's many reasons for that, but there they are.
So really it's then the rest of Kent that has to decide
whether the remainder of Kent goes into two other unitaries
or three other unitaries.
And the problem is, whatever way you cut them,
whichever grouping you do,
you'll always end up with a smaller than 500 ,000 group.
Now, you may say...
So if, say for example, we ended up with, as we would have the smallest unitary,
Folkestone and Hyde, Ashford and Dover, we would have 370 ,000 people.
Well, that's well below the 500 ,000 minimum,
but it's actually well above Medway at the moment,
what Medway is, and well above the average size of the unitary in the country.
So it will all depend, we don't know,
it will all depend on what the Minister thinks on the day when it comes in.
Adrian.
Thank you, Jim.
Just to let you all know,
Gene McMullan spoke at the District Council's Network Conference
on Thursday morning, and he was asked that question directly.
and he said 500 ,000 minimum in the white paper is,
and he's worked guidance, but what he's looking for across the piece,
so nationally there are obviously 21 counties across the country that are in the same situation as us,
he's looking at 500 ,000 as an average across the piece.
If we end up in one at 370, or we fan it at 500,
I think it's not at the discussion point this evening.
We can brush that out between now and November.
It's very clear that 500 ,000 is an average across the whole country.
Great. I'll just take one off of here,
because it may be of interest.
I'll stick these two together.
Both KCC and Medway,
the two unitaries in Kent,
are in significant debt.
What is going to happen to that debt?
And then there's another question
about the equalisation of what will happen to my council tax.
I know other district council areas have different amounts.
Will mine change? What will it go up to?
So, the second one's easiest.
Council tax in this district is traditionally high.
We are, as I'm reliably informed, the second highest council tax in Kent.
Part of the problem that Ashford have, if they enter a unitary with us and Dover,
is that their council tax is below ours.
So when the government talk about equalisation of council tax,
they won't be reducing ours.
Ashford's will have to increase.
So this will happen around the country.
there will be this council tax equalisation or more money for the government.
So you can take that whatever way you want to.
With regard to the debt, we were hopeful at one stage, I think, weeks and weeks ago,
that the government might think about writing some of the debt off.
But we've been told, no, that's not going to happen.
The debt is going to be shared.
is going to be shared.
So all of KCC's debt will be shared between the unitaries.
I'm not entirely sure.
I don't think... Will Medways be shared?
Or that will be shared between all of us?
Microphone Thirteen - 0:51:26
We haven't quite agreed the methodology for the distribution of debt yet.
OK, we'll leave it at that.
But there is a monster amount of money.
Millions and millions of pounds.
So on day one, on the vesting day, the new unitary will start heavily indebted
and just have to work their way through it.
So that's all I'll say about debt.
Just one quick thing, Jim.
Microphone Five - 0:52:01
Kent's turnover gross income is 1 .4 billion.
So that puts into perspective, in a way,
I won't go into their debts, but they're quite massive,
but it is, as Susan would say, not our problem at the moment.
The government will tell us what we're going to have to do.
So, an enormous amount of money, right, Keith?
So, I'll just take it a quick...
How much do you think, not you, Tony, because you know,
how much do you think KCC spend on the roads?
We all complain about piles, don't we?
We all complain. Have a guess. Anyone want to kick us off?
We can play higher or lower, can't we?
Sorry?
Not enough.
Not enough is good. Anyone want to have a stab at a figure?
It is millions, obviously. 50 million.
Anyone want to go higher, lower?
It doesn't matter. It's 51 million.
Jenny knows everything.
51 million pounds, right?
How much do they spend on adult social services?
Anybody have a go?
No? 700 million pounds.
700 million pounds.
So these are monster amounts of money.
So while I don't think that taking over the highways issues can be...
But taking on adult social care, that's the thing.
Up and down the country, that is the thing that is putting councils
under such severe strain, is adult social care.
So that will just give you a perspective. Sorry, you had a question.
Microphone Six - 0:53:47
Hello, it's Georgina Baker. I work for the advocacy people
and we've got some real concerns with this, brought forward from our CEO.
A few, or four actually, funding going down,
expectations of what we do going up,
changing legislation in our area,
impacting processes and services we offer,
failing to match any growth with appropriate resource
behind the scenes, local authorities liable to change,
perhaps merging their boundaries
and changing requirements for service provision.
Obviously, all of these things are worries going forward.
So for a charity -based organization,
which we are many other organizations,
we work on boundaries as well,
not knowing how those boundaries are going to merge,
what impact is that gonna have.
So for instance, if you're throwing a pebble into a pond,
it's gonna ripple out.
So something like this is gonna have impact
with our company for recruiting people in the right areas.
If there's an influx of extra work coming in,
if something's brought down smaller,
it's gonna be more intense on the services
that need to be provided by advocates.
So there's many, many questions
on how it's gonna impact local businesses,
not just ours, but many local business work
in that way, and charities.
So there's a lot of questions
that can't be answered by yourself, I know that,
and until these boundaries are sorted out,
then it's really difficult to work on anything.
From what I'm hearing, it sounds like
it's not gonna really kick in until 2027.
Is that right? Am I correct in saying that?
Well, 2028.
2028.
2028 is when you...
But that is when it's up and running.
So, for example, if you are applying...
So, when they are a shadow authority,
that is when they will be doing their approved list for services.
So, I don't know, if the KCC have an approved list for advocacy companies,
then that's the time that you need to get onto those lists.
We have contracts and they go out to relevant advocacy companies
and it's that person, the best place person, get the contract for it.
But they, by law, have to have advocacy.
So it's just a case of who gets that contract,
who will have to deal with all of this coming in
and they need to be prepared for starting levels
to deal with this extra work, if it's going to come in like that.
All of these things are going to impact,
as it would do with the police and all the other people that have boundaries.
So it's really important that they know as soon as possible
so they can prepare for those different things.
I couldn't agree more.
I genuinely couldn't agree more.
You're quite right, it will impact on everything and everyone.
So none of us will be spared.
But the number of people don't change.
As Tony said, the delivery is the same.
The bins still have to be collected, the roads still have to be repaired.
It's just the way it gets arranged.
That's what's changing fundamentally.
So I'll go back to my moving the pieces around analogy.
Camille, it's well on that, because it's a really important note
and it's one that we've been talking to staff about.
Microphone Thirteen - 0:57:16
around business continuity through change.
And I suppose having been in this before,
arranged with elsewhere,
a lot of the contracts will be novated.
So if you go to current contract
that spans over the change time,
a lot of that will be novated across to the new body.
And we expect the civil servants have said
that there'll be some of that provision made in the order,
in the secondary legislation to get swept up.
But quite rightly, as Jim said, there'll
be some activities and decisions that
need to be made by those new sovereign bodies.
And so those decisions will start, in my view,
to be made from May 27, as those new bodies have
their elected members that can come together.
And then gradually, they will start to make some decisions.
And whilst you have that year of a shadow authority period
why the districts almost wind down and hand over.
So that last year in particular, I think,
there'll be a lot of change.
But certainly all the chief execs across Kent
have absolutely focused very much about business continuity,
delivering services now, making sure
that through all of this period, we're safe and legal on day one.
But also that if there are any service improves
that we can make before 27, 28, because that is still
two or three years away, then we should be doing that.
Hopefully that's some reassurance, but quite right, as you say,
as soon as those bodies come into being,
and as soon as they get their senior teams in place
and their elected members in place, more importantly, that will come first,
then they can start making some decisions.
Mark, and then I'll come to you.
Microphone thirty-seven - 0:59:01
Mark Hoorane, New Folks and Society.
First of all, I just wanted to say thank you.
I may be wrong here, but I was looking, actually, earlier,
I was on the Dover meeting they had this morning on teams.
I don't think any other council...
Some councils are having an extraordinary meeting with the council,
followed by a cabinet meeting. Some are just having cabinet meetings.
I think you might be the only council that's having a public meeting like this.
We think Swale quite liked the idea.
They copied us, didn't they?
So they copied us. But we are, you're right.
Thank you very much. I think this is the way to do things, really.
I think it's an interesting proposal, local government
organization.
I do agree with you.
There may be some concerns.
I'm not totally sure about the cost savings.
We've actually been looking at the Kent Federation of Amenity
Society as rejigging it.
It fell down because meetings in Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells
and such just got too much for people, I think.
And people were losing interest in dealing
with issues that didn't necessarily sit in their societies.
So we were looking at splitting it up into three, mid -east and west Kent.
And we've got some positive feedback from the east Kent group so far.
So I mean, I think this is very much similar sort of territory really.
Of course, there's going to be arguments over who gets what.
And we're told that devolution is a sort of a bringing down to the people of powers, which
is great.
I think for those of us who interact with councils, there might be a bit of going up.
So one thing is, usually we're sitting in here for planning, for example.
Will I be going up to Ashford or Canterbury or somewhere like that to make representations
on the planning meeting, which is a bit more inconvenient for us, you know, Canterbury.
So Ashford's actually over an hour and a half on the bus, if only enough.
Interesting what Tony was saying about local parish councils, are they going to be getting
any more powers?
Because at the moment they seem to be completely out of the picture.
We're talking about restructuring of district councils, but there's nothing really being
said, as you said, there's nothing really in the paper,
about local councils and whether they're actually
going to be getting a share of the burden, as it were.
So yeah, I think that's my question,
is about whether we're going to be finding ourselves traveling
to meetings a bit more as the public.
But also services, KCC services, are they
going to be split down?
Because one thing that would be quite welcoming, I think,
is, as you know, the library's quite dear to us.
and we're being told that they have about £10 ,000 per library, something like that,
to do maintenance and of course if there were less libraries in the area there's more in
the pot hopefully.
So are services like that actually coming down to the unitaries?
Thanks.
Thanks Mark.
I think libraries are a perfect example of stuff that should be desegregated.
I think libraries are a local service.
So I think there's a lot in it.
One of the things that falls out of this, that's really interesting,
is Tanna Parish councils.
And much will be about the ability of those town and parish councils
to step up into this democratic void, which there will be.
So we were talking a little earlier about area committees.
The only area committee you can have in Fokston is Fokston Town Council.
I mean, there's no point...
Well, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot,
But what's the point of creating an area committee for Folkestone
when you've got Folkestone Town Council?
Same in Hyde, the same in New Romley, the same in Hawkins, etc.
So I think there is actually a terrific opportunity
for Town and Parish Councils to step up here.
But we all know, I'm a high town councillor,
we all know that there's no remuneration,
there's no money in...
Most parish councils stagger on as they can.
The people who participate are all volunteers.
So again, there's a huge burden that's being placed on the local community,
but I think there is an opportunity for those town and parish councils
that are able to step up, that there will be a lot to do.
I'll just take one over there and then I'll come back to you.
Thank you, Peter.
I'm all angry at you.
I'm a former city executive, I work for finance, and I was lucky enough to serve on two central government working regimes of the local government.
When they only actually made use of this here in Benwinton, we looked at three and four and five here.
And I can assure you, when we did all the financial calculations, there were no long term savings.
There were a lot of short -term problems here.
What is this district council's favourite option, please?
We don't have one at the moment.
We are in agreement with every other district council in Kent
and the two unitaries,
that we are making a submission on the basis of three or four unitaries.
We think that the work is yet to be done in deciding what is the best.
Now, people will already start to form their views.
There's a ton of data that you can wade through to try and make your mind up.
But some people would say
If we look at the three unitaries that we have in model 1,
we've got North Kent, West Kent and Poor Kent.
So we have the largest geographical area and the lowest population.
And the most beautiful countryside and fabulous heritage, all of that.
But essentially we are less rich than North Kent or West Kent.
So in terms of financial security,
then all of the received wisdom thus far
is that the three unitary model is the one that is least likely to fail.
However I go back to my opening remarks,
in terms of counsellor representation per head of population
and you get a better ratio in four unitaries than you do in three unitaries.
So there's a very, very clear choice for people to weigh up here.
It seems to me, is do you go for a greater democratic representation in four unitaries
or do you go for perhaps a greater financial soundness
in the three unitary model?
So it's a difficult one.
But at the moment, the KCC Medway, the two unitaries
and all of the district councils, all 12 of us,
are agreed that we are submitting to the government
on the basis of a three or four unitary proposal.
and we've given them lots of information,
but essentially we've said all of the hard work
in the number crunching is yet to be done.
There has been some preliminary number crunching
done by Price Waterhouse Cooper,
but at the moment that is not gonna be submitted
by all of us in the main submission.
So at the moment our position is that we support
a three or four unitary proposal
and we will work with our colleagues across all of the other districts
to try and find the best arrangement.
And that's where we are.
Matthew, sorry, I know I can't...
Microphone Forty-one - 1:07:57
Hello there, Matthew, New Ferguson Society.
It strikes me, is this a story that's been written as we go along?
And if that's the case, it seems a bit crazy to actually not show
what your destination is actually going to be.
And if there is a route plan, a blueprint of where we will be in the future,
is that not being shared?
OK, that's a great question.
There are a lot of other unitaries that have experienced
devolution, Cumbria, East Yorkshire, similar rural areas.
They're all complex, they're all different.
and thus far we haven't found one that really suits the position in Kent, have we?
Microphone Thirteen - 1:08:48
Yes, I think it's fair to say that there's no standard blueprint.
As you say, LGR has happened elsewhere in the country,
so there's 14 pieces of legislation that the civil servants have got ready and waiting.
That of course can be used if we're using the districts or borough as the building block,
If we're getting into, I think, a suggestion earlier on about a more fundamental rewrite
of the whole county area, then it's different legislation that would be needed and that
will take a longer process if the Minister is so minded to do a much more fundamental
view.
But your point is well made about a blueprint.
In terms of the process, you know, there is, it's well trodden path really, but it's just
that we are a large and fairly complicated county at the moment and there's no agreement
about the destination, as you quite rightly pointed out,
or not one that's been shared with us anyway.
If we find a blueprint with a destination, I'm very happy to share that.
And if anyone happens across it beforehand,
can they share it with me, please? Thank you.
If it's OK, I'll come to Jenny and call it a day at that.
OK, I'll come back to you for the last one.
Yes.
Mr Andy Vanburen - 1:10:05
I was going to say in terms of meetings and travelling,
there's going to be more use, as I read it in the white paper,
more use of technology.
I don't think that helps with planning face to face
because I think that's really important,
but there will be more use of technology.
And the other thing I just wanted to say is
you can understand the amount of work
that's got to be undertaken and our officers.
It's going to be a huge job for our officers
and I think we need to recognise that as well.
Because, you know, it was obviously the day job to continue
as well as working out how we're going to merge
into whatever unitary we might be.
Certainly, it really is.
So I'll go there and then I'll come to you.
Microphone Thirty-six - 1:10:52
Microphone Thirty-six - 1:10:55
Tony Hull, New Folks from Society.
I see some parallels here. Have you all been to France? Because in France the districts
are headed by the mayor and he's top of the pile. I wondered if someone in Whitehall have
used this as a blueprint to spread across the country?
Yeah, I think someone obviously went on a two week caravan trip to Brittany and thought
how very well it worked. You're quite right.
At the moment, I couldn't tell you when the mayor of Kent will arrive,
when we'll be able to vote for them, but my guess is...
I'm sure it will make Paul look very nervous over there.
I'm sure there will be mayoral elections in due course,
because there are bits of this whole legislation that really don't work
unless you've got a mayor at the top grabbing the strategic stuff.
So I'll come to you. Yeah?
That's it.
Microphone Twenty-two - 1:12:01
I was just going to say the answer to Mark's question is obvious, isn't it?
Whether it's Ashford, Folkestone, Dover, maybe it's Canterbury as well,
the obvious place for the headquarters is in Otterfield Park.
Well, it will come as no surprise to say I completely agree.
Bear in mind that Dover and Ashford have got
very quite swish council chambers.
But that ought to be discussed.
I'm just going to go up there and then I'll come back to you.
We'll get into depth.
During the ghetto period when 50 councils and 10 councils
didn't afford to use their place in the various authority
quality, there was a link up of where they did, for example,
to buy up useful projects for selling and more representative insurance
that would take place so that the new group would come in and then they would
probably represent the different nationalities over time together and maybe what could be
developed in this way. And also I'm interested in
and the alternative examples of where
and art from whether there'll be a re -evaluation
of music that's really style and system
being as an hour difference again
or something that's beyond
will it end the operation from a doctor
or a young woman
if it could be expected as a student
and mostly be more from the new or old
If not, I think any of the time we'll represent the project.
Okay, jolly good.
So I'll take the first one first.
In terms of the continuation of the projects,
we will work earnestly towards that.
I think every other Kent Council will be in the same position.
So we will try and make sure that everything gets tied up.
But we will be competing in a larger pool.
So we'll just have to see how that goes.
All of our projects are really important to us
and we will be defending them to the last.
But we'll just have to see how that works out.
With regard to the committee system, I think it's a really interesting question.
KCC operate a cabinet system
and Medway operate a cabinet system.
Dover operate a cabinet system,
Ashford, Tombridge and Malin,
Tombridge Wells, Sevenoaks, Maisten
and Dartford, Grapesham
and Thanet, Canterbury.
The only one, and ourselves,
and the only one that operates a committee system is Swale.
So during the integration in terms of services, whether we are integrating with Ashford and
Dover or whether we're integrating with Ashford, Dover, Thanet and Canterbury, this will be
done on a portfolio to portfolio holder basis.
So waste collection, housing, these will be done
portfolio holder to portfolio holder.
We're gonna set up in this council,
we're gonna set up a working group
in order to coordinate all of that
portfolio holder to portfolio holder representation.
If we were in a committee system,
this would be much more difficult because we wouldn't have portfolio holders.
So therein lies the difficulty.
I know there are strongly held views about the committee system.
I was very much in favour of the committee system
until the government landed local government reorganisation on us.
It doesn't fit in terms of the way the government see the future.
All of the unitaries, I can't say this with any certainty,
but all of the unitaries will be operating cabinet systems.
So it's going to be very, very difficult for us
if we have to change to a committee system
because we won't have that portfolio -to -portfolio holder interface.
And you had a question?
Microphone Six - 1:17:07
We haven't really touched on how it's going to hit the local community
and the everyday people and how they're going to be impacted
bit by potentially costs going up and that kind of thing.
It's a lot of hypothetical questions going on and answers.
So it's really difficult to tell how it's going to impact people.
And a lot of people won't understand how this is all working anyway.
And they find it complicated now trying to work out who to go to
for regular things out in the community.
So I think it's really important that when it is done,
hopefully it will get done properly,
that they will still have people that they can go to,
councillors, if they're going to be cut down,
how involved are these people going to be?
Is it going to be democratic?
There's a lot of questions that need to be answered with all this.
I think the general worries for the local community would be,
are things going to go up?
How is it going to hit them personally with these changes happening?
I share all of your concerns, believe me.
I go back to my earlier point.
I think the vast majority of people,
they don't have a great deal of interaction with the council.
The bins get collected, they might have a planning permission for an extension
or they want to report a pothole or something like that.
I think for those people they won't see a huge change.
Hopefully they'll see some advantages in terms of a one -stop shop, etc.
the things I covered earlier.
The people that will see quite significant change
are the people that have got a large level
or significant level of interaction with the council.
So if, for example, you've got special needs children
or you've got members of your household
that receive adult social care,
so there will be some people that will be impacting significantly.
Microphone Six - 1:19:02
I think that the vast majority of people will be fairly lightly impacted,
particularly in this district,
because you're unlikely to see a massive increase in your council tax.
Going back onto the social care, I deal with that side of it.
It's difficult enough to get social workers involved with anything as it is now.
I know people with disabled children...
There's a whole pocket of it.
There's a whole area where they're really struggling to get help
with all of this already.
So, making it more going on to smaller areas,
is it going to get worse? That's the question, isn't it?
Well, my hope is that it wouldn't, but I'm not very hopeful.
So, I think that people who have a significant level of interaction
with whether it's KCC, whether it's us, whatever,
I think they are likely to be significantly impacted.
I think the majority of people who don't have an everyday involvement with us
will see a lot less.
So that's where we are.
Are we done, everyone? Well done.
You've stuck it out.
We only had two people walk out, so we've done quite well.
Can I thank all of the officers who've worked so hard to put this together
Can I thank our wonderful Chief Executive, who did all of the slide deck and knows tons
more than I do.
Thank you all for coming along.
This is a really important topic.
Do tell your friends and neighbours that this is coming down the track because it's going
to have an impact.
Thank you very much.