Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee

Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee
Tuesday, 5th December 2023 at 6:00pm

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Slide 1
Cllr Connor McConville

1 Apologies for absence

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Mr Jake Hamilton
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr John Wing
Cllr Connor McConville

2 Declarations of interest

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Declarations of Interest

3 Q2 Performance Report 2023/24

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Gavin Edwards
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Gavin Edwards
Cllr James Butcher
Gavin Edwards
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Laura Davison
Gavin Edwards
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Gavin Edwards
Cllr Connor McConville
Slide 2
Mr Ola Owolabi

4 Medium Term Financial Strategy 2024/25 to 2027/28

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Slide 3
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Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
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Slide 35
Mr Ola Owolabi
Cllr Laura Davison
Mr Ola Owolabi
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Lydia Morrison
Cllr James Butcher
Mr Ola Owolabi
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Mr Ola Owolabi
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Slide 36
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Cllr Connor McConville
Slide 40
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Mr Ola Owolabi
Cllr Connor McConville
Slide 42
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Lydia Morrison
Slide 48
Cllr Connor McConville
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Slide 49

5 Budget Strategy 2024/25

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Mr Ola Owolabi
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Lydia Morrison
Cllr Connor McConville
Lydia Morrison
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Ola Owolabi
Cllr Connor McConville

6 Options Report on whether to continue to maintain Kent County Council (KCC) owned grass in the District, which is subsidised by Folkestone & Hythe District Council (FHDC)

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Finance & Performance SC KCC Grass cutting report Dec 2023 AB Final

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr David Godfrey
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Tim Prater
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Ewan Green

7 Waste & Street Cleansing Saving Proposals

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Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr David Godfrey
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr David Godfrey
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr James Butcher
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr James Butcher
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr James Butcher
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr John Wing
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Laura Davison
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr Laura Davison
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Ewan Green

8 Overview of Community Grants

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Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr James Butcher
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Laura Davison
Cllr Connor McConville
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr John Wing
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr John Wing
Mr Ewan Green
Cllr Connor McConville
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:00:07

Good evening, everyone and welcome to the meeting of the Finance and performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee. This meeting will be webcast live to the internet. For those of you who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you will need to leave the Chamber for members officers and others speaking at the meeting. It is important that the microphones are used, so viewers on the webcast and others in the room may hear you would anyone with a mobile phone, please switch it to silent as they can be distracting, and I would like to remind all Members that, although we have strong opinions on matters under consideration, it is important to to members officers and public speakers with respect. Thank you

1 Apologies for absence

good evening and welcome everyone moving to the agenda item number 1 and apologies for absence, thank you Chair, we have no apologies.

Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:00:51

item number 2, actually, Godfrey.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:00:57

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:01:07

some Members from the wider Committee were invited this evening that they're not, they're not a member of the of the core committee.

thank you.

item number 2 declarations of interest to any Members have any declarations of a prejudicial personal interest to declare Councillor woodchip.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:01:25

I declare an interest as a director of opportunities within a third dispensations, OK, thank you very much, Councillor Lincoln, the same.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:01:31

yes, the same opportunist.

Cllr John Wing - 0:01:32

OK, thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:01:37

Kenny item number 3, the quarter, the second quarter performance report.

for this this year and to introduce this item, thank you Kevin.

2 Declarations of interest

3 Q2 Performance Report 2023/24

thank you, Chair and good evening members, this report provides an

Gavin Edwards - 0:01:50

update on the Council's performance for the second quarter of the 23 24 financial year, covering the 1st of July to 30th September 2023.

the report enables the Council to assess progress against approved key performance indicators arising from the core corporate action plan.

quarterly performance report which set out in front of you in appendix 1.

and where the performance has not been met, explanations have been given by the relevant Service, leads and noted within the report the report once considered by Members this evening it will then be presented at Cabinet on the 13th of December, and I'm happy to take any questions, thank you very much.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:02:24

thank you, and I open up to members for questions or comments or queries regarding the report.

Councillor Butcher

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:02:35

Cllr James Butcher - 0:02:38

Tuesday it was a couple of things, one was there just seems to be some really good results there on things like I think it was street cleanliness of streets, graffiti removed how quickly fly-tipped rubbish was removed and I just wonder how those stories get told to the public because they are really good news stories and there's enough bad stories out there to.

make sure we're telling the good news stories to.

thank you for your comments there, Councillor Butcher, with the goals,

Gavin Edwards - 0:03:05

obviously this report is obviously published on our website, but once again I am very happy to go and have a conversation with our comments team about seeing where that can go in terms of that information is published on our website within this report when we do it when we do it but I'm happy to have those conversations with comes on that.

thank you for your interest or a second question was about.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:03:27

some some of the results say around fly, tipping are about the targets around councillor activity, doesn't really say anything about progress on reducing fly tipping, it's just about council activity.

and I wonder how do we test whether, as a result of all those kinds of activities, there's less of the thing that we're trying to prevent?

on, obviously on again, thanks for your question, Councillor Butcher,

Gavin Edwards - 0:03:54

I'll have to obviously speak of the of the Environmental Protection Team on that and obviously the waste team with regards to fly tipping and the actual progression of what you're asking on that, but again I'm happy to go back and speak to them and I'll provide a response to to yourself and the Committee on that because because having having raised the particular issue that a resident raised with me, they did a

Cllr James Butcher - 0:04:15

fantastic job acted very quickly and I guess some of that doesn't come through in this the progress that we're making on those things.

Councillor Davidson, thank you Chair.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:04:30

yes, I mean, looking at the the different sections, I suppose the section that leaps out of me in terms of the traffic lights is the housing.

section, the quality homes and infrastructure, where there's a number of red sections where we're not meeting what we would hope to meet, so looking at things like rough sleepers, number of households in bed-and-breakfast number of households in temporary accommodation and and kind of so on.

and I'm really conscious that, in terms of rough sleepers, for example, I would imagine that those figures have got worse, even since this this was reported, we've got that we've had the opening of the winter shelter this week and I know they're oversubscribed in terms of numbers of people who need a space, so I suppose I'm I'm asking you know what what more can we do to focus particularly on this area where clearly there are some issues?

thanks

Gavin Edwards - 0:05:30

again, thank you for your comments on that, I have obviously spoken to housing colleagues on that I mean, looking at the performance information we've had over the past couple of months.

approaches. Obviously, for the Council have stabilised over the over the past couple of months, we see about 170 pouches a month again. This is something that we are obviously closely monitoring and obviously with the levels of approaches we're receiving. The number of rough sleepers in the district has obviously increased and obviously the report shows that as well, and that's something that you've just pointed out, especially that's increased obviously over the summer period and it's remained high over the last few months

Sri counts, there was one done, obviously, on the 28th of November, obviously it found 15 people to be rough, slating 15 people to be rough, sleeping, forgive me, but that's obviously down from the 21 identified earlier in the month.

obviously the outreach team and local partners are obviously working with clients, although the numbers are reducing there are obviously significant complex cases at the moment. Still

neighbours, obviously an increased significant number who will obviously not engage with services as well, and that's obviously the update I've had on that, but I'm more busy and happy to take back the questions and some of the notes that you've made and speak to those relevant officers and obviously provide any necessary response to this committee, thank you.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:06:45

thank you any other comments or questions regarding this report.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:06:47

for myself, let's say, let's say that this style of report just just improves all the time.

quite quite quite pleased with the the the the the additional category with the up and down arrows and it just helps give give an extra layer of of the picture.

probably not probably not able to be answered now, but just looking through it.

more recently.

the long term empty use homes brought back into use compared to at first quarter of 1 29 seems, as it seems it, a massive injury survey would be quite interesting to just to get some further information about how that's come about who's brought that about and is there any sort of good practice lessons a week we can take from that to maybe try and implement between now and the end of the year to try and it's a massive boost to us meeting that target, so is there a possibility of meeting that target based on the work that's happened in this in this quarter?

Gavin Edwards - 0:07:58

once again, thank you for that year in terms of the obviously the that the background detail of the long-term projection that moving forwards, I'm very happy to go away and obviously have a conversation with housing colleagues again and obviously provide a more written response to the committee on on the detail of that and obviously the comments on what's on long-term empty houses are projected in the HRA and Liverpool as it stands, but again I will be happy to go away and provide that as a formal response.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:08:22

if no members have any more questions or comments, are we happy to receive and note the report Genk do you need a proposer and a secondary, and you have to agree?

a great great thank you very much OK item number 4 that the medium term financial strategy or the MTFS, as it's quite commonly known, which is from the next financial year 24 25 2 3 2 27 28, and how are you going to be introducing this, yes, thank you, sir and good evening everyone.

4 Medium Term Financial Strategy 2024/25 to 2027/28

Mr Ola Owolabi - 0:08:55

upgrades will go through the next agenda item, which is the medium term financial plan and the budget strategy.

those two documents actually cost a hundred times together. What we've done previously is to provide brief things or to share the Deputy shares and few members up we put together slides, we shall be shared with every members so to cover both items are only going to go through my slice again and bring out important points rather than going through everything, something that is so raced as well is that since the publication of your report, there has been a change to that figure. The budget gap has gone up by 2010. I will touch on that in a minute, so

it sets out the key themes is mainly to provide an overview of the budget similar to what we went through last week, so I'm not going to go through this blind by line again, the discussion is about general fund revenue budget requirement as you know, this is funded through cancer tasks and which will have to be decided by the Council, the referendum limit in terms of consultants is 0 3% or 2.99% or 5% business rate up to fund most of our expenditure and government grant has to be another source of funding in terms of expenditure.

we aspect seen an announcement in terms of the final settlement before Christmas, so hopefully we are looking forward to that other incomes that tends to help with giraffe fund is the fees and charges and investment income.

a few weeks ago, on the 22 of November, we had the autumn statement from the chancellor.

the expectation, then, is that there will be good news which we have a lot of local authorities that are struggling at the moment, however, that is not what will receive, then there are a clear indication in terms of what the government is trying to say trying to do including a clear intention to increase productivity in public sector activities by point 0 5% each year which we bring that in line with price private sector, however, if any Council is looking for additional grant or additional help to help in balancing their budget will be disappointed.

most of the measures that was covered most of the good bit that actually impact on our own every Council is changes to major planning applications, the 32 million to bust planning backlog announcement for or around 50 was allocated in terms of housing fund of which hopefully will prove we produce or provide 2,400 new homes.

the Councillors freest hosts more business multiplayer for next year and there are new grounds going up to a 1 million from round 3 levelling-up fund.

the agenda Item 5 for your report is to do with budget strategy, and the budget strategy is about aligning the direction and objective from empty phase. Budget strategy and the medium term financial plan works hand in hand. It tends to outlined below the path to balanced budgets for the next coming financial year. Looking at the budget growth, seminal efficiencies, emerging issues and legislation. All of this has been provided as part of the appendices to the report that has been shared with you. It helps us address into revised

deficit position, unofficial charges and the report would be brought to Cabinet on the 13th of December, which is next week.

medium term financial plan is a very, very key documents to have written that tends to happen with Council financial management. It's actually include the corporate plan priorities, the key aim and service objectives, its help in forecasting asana economic impact on our finances, not only for one years for three to four years ahead, so therefore we can plan ahead. We tend to use that to model and stress test, the possibilities, the probabilities and what are the best choice for the Council? It is a key part

of the budget process and casitas setting. It has to be refresh every year, so every November or December it has to come to this Committee for concentration and go to Cabinet for approval as well. There are issues, or there are areas that has not been included within the medium term financial plan. This includes some of the critical decisions that came up during discharge chambers. One or two of those items will be discussed later at this meeting. Planning control changes, Local Plan changes, parking enforcement and additional grant mittens costs. Does that not be considered apart from that, everything is because within this plan,

here is the latest figure in terms of where we are looking at our budget gap, what the medium term financial plan is forecasting for 2004 25 at the moment is 6, on bread and 30 8, k budget deficit.

in 2005 20 states roughly 634 26 27 of 1.1 27 or 28 of 2.2.

in total, we are talking about four points things we did in the past four years, I think again we have to put it in perspective to say when we are having this discussion a few months ago, we actually have taken above over 4 million pounds.

this idea zoo shows that has been used with inflation, the CPI and interest rates, so I'm not going to go through that in detail.

in terms of cost pressure, what that MTFF has considered or put into consideration are the inflationary pressures which are the ways to pay award Internal Drainage Board pressures new on Bruno's grant, which has been removed from 23 from the current budget, 2004 25 budget removal of funding from collection fund reserves,

recasting of Amapá. There has been some movement as well, and that is to do with interest, payable investments in calm, sexual, touching one ground and revenue contributions to capital outlay, one of the biggest figures there is that revenue contribution to capital outlay. That is not a surprise. What that is saying is that in the current year, 2013 24 there are significant projection of

revenue expenditure that needs to be funded used in catheter capital that needs to be funded through revenue, however, because of a lot of slip edges, they would not be happening this year and we are not will not be using a lot of revenue in terms of funding catheter in 2025.

there are other unavoidable pressures as well, which include the alignment of incomes, so this has been put together as bus services, we define us and strategy of warrior 99, a SHA of 99 place of war, saves oppression of 1 8 8 West of 76, a total of 600 or 17,

in addition to that we have the priority base budget savings. Members will be aware that we started looking at party base budget as far back as August and that include engagement with officers with members to scrutinise all the budget line by line. The outcome of that is the savings that we are looking in front of you you got in front of you with leader shape governors and a lot of its one finance and strategy of 4 1 8 1 forecast, not the biggest one oppression of 5 6 said and IT transformation programme savings it's Ansip anticipated that how we deliver to points 0 3 2 million in total 3.6 million

I will not be going through this, this is just an indication of the bottom line, looking at the medium term financial plan, just to put everything in summary.

we started this discussion by saying this Council has got a budget gap of 4.5 million, and what have we done since then we've had to look, I did not surveys corporate budget 1 8 6 in terms of 7.

unavoidable cost pressure and realignment of income 6 7 9 priority base budget of 3.6 billion savings.

post 23 24 debts, adjustment of several hundred

and the net impact at the moment is 6 3 8, that's what this history aids, that I shared you in my previous slides.

dust or dust 6 3 8 needs to be closed.

but it's how we get to February Cabinet Council, we need to have a balanced budget, so therefore there are actions that needs to take place are one of those structures is to look at additional savings with contrasted veins operational savings I'm not going to talk too much about this because those two papers would be considered by this committee as within this meeting.

what are the key challenges decided youth-focused challenges, inflation, pay, award, interest rates might change Government's fiscal policy, financial states that too many expectation is added should be with us by by Christmas and cost of living.

in terms of capital programme, this is adjusted to provide you with an indication of the plan going forward, so while you, what you are looking at is that in 2004 25, properly, 27 million is projected 25 treatises of 23 million in 2006 27 of

20 million going on to 2008 29 of 22 million, and what we need to understand in there as well is that the capital programme are fully funded projected, however, we are expecting significant borrowing, which would be roughly it's a million per annum in 2005 26 and 26 27.

within those capital programme are significant capital growth which has been considered, we have feel within operational operational services or directorates handheld computer of its in thousand right or more of 90,000 Pegasus of 26 grind out a tractor or fuzzy escalator of 40.

we have forecast in there the forecast, so the projection is that that will be a 10 million pounds commitment over two years, in addition to that we have got leisure service leisure centre development a commitment of roughly 26 million over four years we have financial management system again, that is a position at the moment of five of half a million.

pizza replacement programme in terms of those big items, the expectation is that we need to borrow to fund them initially, however, there will be a capital receipt that will be coming in to help us in paying off all those borrowing.

future strategy is what we have to do to close the budget gap and closing the budget gap is not just focusing on that, 6 3 8 is actually looking thinking long term, we have for point 6 over the next four years, so what do we need to do, we need to look at up priority strategic investment use of reserve which is more recommended and we have to maximise supporting opportunities.

in terms of vagina fund, again, this is just a picture of where we are, we are currently reviewing all the General Fund for the Council at the moment, what is the right level of reserves again, this is.

this is what are called best practice in terms of what we need to hang on to, but this will be looked into as part of the overall General Fund Reserve review in terms of implication, what do we need to do, we need to look at how to win is to fund the Malta deficit for the last three or four years.

do we need to find additional savings, council tax business rates, grant income is looking unlikely, but it might be a way out what is avoidable in terms of growth.

transformation programme to reduce costs, that's the question mark capital receipt maximisation has to be considered, in addition to that, CEC has been looking at areas of addressing these gaps as well in year savings, stop spending money, continue with auto pool.

Park investment, but in a different shape and different format asset disposal.

our budget timetable is just looking forward in terms of what we have to do in January and what its nest in February in January is about JSA general fund budget which will come into this meeting, as well as position, is that we have the final provisional local government settlement in December.

come February, we have to balance the budget and we have to take all those balanced budgets, so the Cabinet and the Council.

we are thinking at the moment looking at consultation in terms of the budget consultation, so DA will be on our website and would be using the consultants who were positive, doing that ideas in terms of consultations would be welcome.

I stood there and am happy to take questions, thank you.

thank you very much.

detail.

hopefully, Members are still with us and will open up.

to Members for any questions, clarifications or or comments, just to

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:24:57

note that I was leaving the paper in the pack is the

the Cabinet paper, so the recommendations there are not our recommendations were here to just look through through the paper and and obviously pass on any any any comments and give the Cabinet Member for Finance who is with us this evening a clear steer on what what you want. You know what you're thinking is over the assumptions made in the report candidates yeah, I don't mind going for 42 thanks very much for the presentation, it was helpful actually just to kind of have

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:25:33

time, to reflect on on what you were, what you were showing

so some of these are probably clarifications.

I want to just double-check about the inflation assumption,

and whether that's shifted or

I don't know how I missed it in the whether it was in one of the grids compared to the papers that we had originally for the meeting, so I just wanted to double-check about that.

should I actually pause there and do them one at a time, or do you want me to run through the questions and then?

the

no not.

yeah, so it's come down.

brought to the vote in favour of this decision.

not for the provision of services.

perfect, thank you very much, that's that's very helpful to understand.

in you talked about looking at different scenarios in terms of the the strategy, sort of best-case scenario, middle scenario, the worst-case scenario just in in terms of what we're looking at this evening, what is that modelled on is is that, based on a kind of worst-case scenario or,

can you as a result of the business?

right.

sorry, Michael, there will be the best-case scenario I mean, looking at all the assumptions or looking at the impact we can have one might harmful based on the 0, be R indices in a few years, yes.

okay, because some of the things could could shift so, for example, in in what's been included there around the new homes bonus, there's a an assumption of nothing coming through in that regard, I guess we'll see whether I mean that would clearly be a worst-case scenario in that case wouldn't it not the best-case scenario so that might have an impact on things that I I guess?

and I just wanted to ask about the in that same grid, the heading other Non-Service related grant, which covers, I think, quite a wide variety of different grants, including, I think, what was called the was at the Yes, 31 Grant.

can you give us a bit of a sense of how that figure could fluctuate and what difference that might potentially make when that's clarified?

thank you so much for your questions.

Mr Ola Owolabi - 0:28:16

again, I think in terms of the other grounds.

the Council tends to benefit from furious grounds during the at the beginning of the year and towards the end of the year there are some of those ground relates to our business rate due pool and those granted to Frankfurt so much that we need to set something aside in our resolve to be able to deal with that, so it's just not something that we could say Yes, these will help or dissuade resolve the situation.

once we have the final settlement, hopefully within these four weeks, that will make that clearer in terms of the position where there is going to be good or bad, but it is something that we have to make sure.

the projection that we are considering has to be prudent, rather than just put any figure, that thank you.

can I just come back on that yeah, I understand that I suppose it's in

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:29:15

the context of these things are about timing, aren't they in lots of ways and when the information is coming through? Obviously, in this meeting we're being asked to look at specific savings, but we don't have the full picture at the moment as to where things are actually going to look like once they have been further announcements from the government and once further work has been done, so it's quite a difficult position to be in in that regard. I think, and the other thing you talked about was the review of reserves, which obviously could have a significant role to play in terms of how how a budget is

brought to an even position going forward, so is there any more you can say about that where that review of reserves is up to folk again,

Mr Ola Owolabi - 0:30:00

I think, is part of best practice to review your reserves unknown at beginning of the year towards the end of the year, and why are we doing that is to identify, because you have to type of results you have the earmarked reserve, which has been set aside for a specific purpose or you have the general pot which is there for emergencies so that review is an opportunity to audit opportunities to identify if there is any flexibilities within.

just reserve we need to determine why have we opened them, what are we wanted them for when I would like you to call me to spend them, and that is what our review needs to flush out at the end of the review if there is any flexibility or any opportunity to identify any reserve that is totally not.

that we don't date, DARD itself will be taken away from me. A mattress are put into a general pot which is general fund reserve in terms of budget reserves is not recommended that we should continue or continuously or regularly useless staff to work to balance your budget. However, there might be one of where you need to call on your deserve to be able to balance your budget, but the expectation is that you need to make sure you have a balanced budget rather than relying

your resource, most of your deserved their aid, are going to be specific for a particular project or the general fund for all foreseen events that might happen, so you'll be prepared, thank you.

it aims consulates.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:31:42

any other Councillors comments on this was from Councillor Buchanan.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:31:53

I guess to pick up on the reserves because it it looks like from table to page 59 of the pdf that the earmarked reserves are set to reduce by about 20% is that right over the two year period there, which, on the face of it seems like quite a hefty reduction.

so I guess there's just a and an observation about that and is that to be expected or alarming or out of the ordinary, or what I suppose is a second question related to that is at what point to you report on how that use of reserves where the use of reserves gone too if we just took, for example, the climate change reserve

at some point do we get to hear or yes, that's gone down by 20% because we spent it on these things and it's had that kind of impact or otherwise, yes, we've just taken a hit on that to cover deficit, so it should do that.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:32:50

Lydia Morrison - 0:32:52

Councillor Butcher, the we took a paper to Cabinet last month and ask him for permission to create a new reserve, which was the Transformation Reserve, so the major movement on your environment reserve, it was to move a significant sum out of that to create the transformation reserve so that's the largest movement most of the movements are to the reserves.

within next year are to fund continuing to fund posts through earmarked reserves, so some of the housing posts continue to be funded through that and we have extended another full post and will be drawing that from the homelessness fund. So, as you'll see, the new transformation reserve has been made and allocated from a number of other reserves, but it is that the 1.5 VS it is so that so that's come out of the client hope that it has come hard yeah, but we were was were predicting a reduction of about 4 million sat right in the

no sorry, not for me, about a million, or something is that reduction yeah, so I guess there's more that's coming out than just the Transformation Fund. I'm not looking for a particular answer now because the question of detail, but I'm just interested in, when do we unpack what's happening to the reserves over a period of time, the detail will come in in the budget paper around those movements. There are one of them as another few movements that we will be recommending to Cabinet as well, so the full budget paper will have all the details of the movements grant thanks

thank you, Councillor Butcher, can I carry on and another yeah.

this was the from the budget strategy bit and it's about the capital programme.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:34:31

and how that's funded and the proportionate funded by borrowing, which seems to vary a lot year on year, but is there a kind of target or a sensible limit we have on ha on what proportion of the capital programme it's sensible to fund by borrowing?

thank you, I think what we've got within our treasury management is

Mr Ola Owolabi - 0:34:53

what we call operational limit in terms of what we are able to borrow, however, we tend to borrow for capital programme, what is very, what is important, where we look at our capital programme is to make borrowing the last resort what you've got in terms of just 18,000,013 million is a projection of what we think will be happening, and there is the comments within within the report that we are expecting significant amounts of capital receipts to pay all those borrowing back so therefore it will not have huge revenue implications.

borrowing tends to look at what is prudent, what is affordable, because borrowing impacts your revenue, so we just need to make sure that we are not borrowing excessively.

which we have huge impact on our revenue, thank you.

yeah thanks.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:35:56

I suppose last thing was about the consultation.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:35:59

you mentioned about consultation, how many responses have been, which was tiny, just a handful, I guess, and not for now, but I'm just interested in what kind of goes out for consultation to help people understand.

kind of what the key issues are because, certainly going through, this is not always straightforward, so if we just take the predicted deficit over the next four years, there's a sudden jump which comes very helpfully explained to me before the meeting, but that that's not easy to get at. So if you just look at that most predicted deficit figures, your eye immediately gets drawn, OK, I know there's a big jump and then another big jump in the final two years, but to work to understand how come would take a lot of digging so just in terms of our transparency in how we can sell. I'll be curious, after this, to understand how that works

Mr Ola Owolabi - 0:36:54

thank you, let me quickly come back to those big job, those big jobs.

what all those jobs were as a result of your borrowing, where you are borrowing at same million in 2005 26 and 18 million in 2006 27, there are potential implications for every 1 million pounds that you borrow. There will be revenue implications to the tune of 89,000 pounds, so the job was as a result of borrowing at that level, and that is what that is trying to reflect in terms of the consultation and how I just don't think we've agreed at yet, so I'm looking forward to all five wants to sit down with her and agree how we need to move that forward, but ideas would be welcomed in terms of Members will. Thank you,

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:37:50

Nicola yeah. I mean the concentrations, mainly part of the budget strategy which is coming up in a future item, so we might revisit that there, but

Councillor Procter, did you want to add something thank you yeah, and

Cllr Tim Prater - 0:38:04

thanks to Councillors for their very helpful questions and points, I think the key thing with the MCFs is that, as I've mentioned before the further you get looking ahead for years the more guessing with style this becomes and actually in terms of setting this as the process in the run through to February.

there's gonna be movements on this, literally you can see that the report that you have, but we discussed a week ago has changed by 20,000 pounds because an assumption changed and there will be more of those.

I think the important thing to note here is the direction of travel.

a year ago we were forecasting, this Council is forecasting that next year would be a four and a half million pound gap.

we are now forecasting that the gap point 6 million pounds and

we've clearly got to get closer to that, not being a gap, but it's about direction of travel on those things.

where that reserves jump as whether that the increasing that gap happens in years 3 and 4 is broadly thought, some guesses that we've made on capital spending that we've had a guest councils, not discussed councils, not said Well, we'll do that yet and will spend that money but you put something in that's reasonable it gives you an idea of where you go and there is also no

yeah, there's no revenue from those as well, so for instance there there'll be a number of items whereby if there's asset disposal, or this is based that that money will come back into the Council for every million pounds in as well, you reduce the cost of carry by 89,000 pounds as well so that as ins and outs but you can't predict what you're going to sell at what price at what time in two years' time.

so you place the best guess, obviously we're not going to wait two years and stare at that and go OK, we need to borrow another one and a half million pounds that's difficult, there's the management process within this.

but you're coming up against exactly the problem that the finance team and the cabinet members.

you may have at this moment is that this stuff keeps moving, and it ain't easy, and those numbers just keep changing and something that the government will make an announcement tomorrow.

you rerun the numbers and things change where we're trying to get to is to have a small enough deficit, he, I'd love to say 0, but a small enough deficit over the other, but we're aiming towards that's all I've deficit that we then give ourselves the headroom to be able to do the interest in the exciting things that this Council wants to do about providing new facilities about providing you are getting the right home for

Councillor about building new council houses, et cetera, leave aside, the HR 8 split against capital budget, the things that we want to do and the bigger the number over the MTFS, the bigger they bet number ends at the end of the four years, the less confidence officers and the finance team have in what we can do in terms of spending on those big click on those big things by the direction of travel. I think you can see is is good

we are now down from 80 million pounds over the next four years to just under four and a half, so 13 and a half million pounds down.

little way to go, and I think the share same, I just wanted to make the point before you get there is that where we're talking about those cost savings and those options later in the debate, those numbers change as well they're not costed into here but you've had some broad totals of what that could be in terms of a full year impact in.

in a year and then the papers talk about it not being for the full year impact because you can't do all of the work on the 1st of April anyway, and so don't assume that anything in terms of those proposals that you've got there the saving which is discussed won't be a 100% cashable saving in most instances in the next financial year but it gives you a good indication of where what impact that will have in in full inf in VAT in full in full future financial years.

so I think that's again important, which of though, and it's again not a let's try and get this budget to 0 which of these do I need to take to get to 0 that's a mug's game for us to play trying to just aim for a number, I think is this we're trying to reduce that deficit as much as humanly possible. We're trying to do it by still continuing to deliver the best possible services that we can to every resident in this area if there are ways that we can make, we understand that there are some savings that we can make and some fees

fees increases that we've made which nobody wanted to do, nobody got elected on the basis of increasing fees or reducing the level of service I want, but if they are the less painful decisions from other things in terms of cutting frontline staff or something like that then they are the things that we should look at and see if we can rank them in some variety of order which of these are the least painful so that as we try to get our number down but we should be picking at least some of that in those areas.

that's somehow.

I think Councillor Procter.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:43:20

any other comments or questions from councillors.

just for myself.

although if we, if we look to the assumptions in Appendix 5.

just trying to you've got a council base council tax base, increase percentage, looking at net, looking just at next year really and then, and then a final tax base, sort of sort of number.

how I read it is that there would be a slightly slightly lower now looking at the percentage, but then obviously we're having a slight increase in the tax base, so you just explain a little bit about how they have a percentage figure in a table with lights.

to the actual number figure.

thank you in terms of the, I believe you're looking at the MTFF

Mr Ola Owolabi - 0:44:17

assumptions on SKEP get so difficult we've got for time to, because that's actually currently being looked at by ref something will not be surprised up at the time we get to cabinet, not just cabinet next cabinet topical be revised, what we've done is to use the projection based on where we are last year and increase that amount by 1% to get to where we are now. However, the actual task based increases are currently being worked on

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:44:56

thank you for that, and then I guess I am looking at appendix 2, which sort of by exhibiting down, quite quite neatly.

so obviously with with considerably reduced expenditure

from this current financial year, which was part of the part of the job that.

it's been getting on our, owing our income is is.

it sets out, which is which is, which is good, however, obviously our council tax retirement is a lot lower, be nice, if we had quite a lot more people living in the district.

but obviously this net transfers to, and Roberts from, reserves, I see you, you're putting you putting some money into reserves, but what assumptions are being made, if any, about using our existing reserves within that within that figure, so I'm just looking at,

that that bottom line of 600.057 million

we have a carry forwards reserve of just over 2 million from underspends in previous years, so the thing that it was, I was led to believe that we were saving money in in 2002 23.

to enable us to work to then use that to work to to balance future budgets, so no, you've got something to say just on that specifically.

Olivia

thank you Chair.

Lydia Morrison - 0:46:28

reserves is primarily a ring-fenced grants that had hadn't been spent in year and there has been carried forward. It's one of the big reserves that we are doing a detailed review of because not all of it. It is in previous years dedicated to ring fenced reserves and hasn't been used. So I believe that there will be an uplift in the general reserve once we've completed that review. The other carry forwards were transferred into the General Reserve and therefore form part of this 600 m deficit that will fund, through their within the budget paper and as part of the Star Chambers. As you know, there was an agreement by Cabinet to fund some some significant front line post from reserves, so there is some post, as I said earlier, that will be funded from reserves for the housing support team, the welfare team and the detail of that will come forward in your budget papers at your next meeting.

and

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:47:30

obviously, in one of the later papers will look at some proposals for 4 4 items of growth in the next financial year and presumably they would, if approved, be added on to the current deficit figure, so I think there's just about 700,000, I think proposed so if they were all approved then our deficit figure would be more akin to sort of 1.3 1.4 million that'd be a correct assumption.

Lydia Morrison - 0:48:01

it would, and it wouldn't be one that I would be recommending, what I'm hoping is that the those gross items that we look at alternative ways of funding it or looking at alternative things that may be reduced or stopped to fund it, because you know what I don't want to do is have this reliance on reserves to balance our budget, because although you know that you would appear will think that they are significant in reality terms, it doesn't even even cover a year's worth of trading if we were to significantly lose any income. So so, yes, we have obviously been talking you through the growth items and how we would seek to fund those

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:48:39

thank you for that anything else. On the 75th Patrick Costos yeah, I'm not sure if this is the right place to raise it or not, but just in

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:48:46

terms of the process of working through this you obviously had the process earlier the star chamber process, as you were calling it now, that some time has passed and obviously in or various things have shifted, and in clearly there's the the transformation work. That's been going on is there, as part of the process, to go back to the various different areas and see where those are at now, whether things have shifted around, whether assumptions that were made earlier in the process have changed or whether that impacts the numbers in any way. Is there a sense checking process that goes goes on

Councillor Dobson were always since checking, but we then we will not

Lydia Morrison - 0:49:27

be going back due to do a fundamental review, the expectation is that the star chamber process has set the budget for those services for next year.

thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:49:42

and, as I said, this paper, of course, is a cabinet paper that we will have an opportunity at full Council to to see this again, so we're just obviously noting the report, we are happy to agree to note the report.

great OK, thank you, OK, then we will move on to.

5 Budget Strategy 2024/25

agenda item 5, ties in nicely so budget strategy, again for 24 25.

Mr Ola Owolabi - 0:50:16

the slides of cited Australia cover boats, I assume that as I was going through them, but there might be some specific questions, let's say around specifically around maybe the growth proposals and other such items which are which are relevant in those papers, thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:50:31

if it doesn't need another formal introduction, then we can we can move straight straight onto to members.

if Members have any questions or comments regarding item 5 Councillor Dobson yeah, I would just welcome the longer consultation period

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:50:48

that's outlined in the report. I think previously it's always felt like that's happened over the Christmas period and it's been quite challenging for pupils to contribute, so you're looking at me like it isn't longer, but I had the sense that it was longer maybe it isn't going into February for for people to comment on that and I I would just agree with Councillor Butcher in terms of anything that we can do to make it more accessible for people because it is really challenging for people to to get a grasp of these things so how we do that

really good, I think, to think about that, and if there's ways that.

councillors as a whole can have a better understanding, I think, that would help with us being then able to talk to residents to feed into that process.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:51:42

thank you any other any other comments on item 5 Budget strategy, OK, obviously, for myself, just to sort of just to ponder some of that, some of that some of the growth.

and then can be alignment proposals interested in what you you said just earlier.

Lydia, some of the items in there are probably out of our control, they talk about reductions in income in certain areas and and things like that, but I mean, what's what items within their would there be a scope for for discussion about and are there any items in there in particular that the committee might might want to have a view upon?

Lydia Morrison - 0:52:24

and this year, for the first time in a couple of years we actually looked at the trend on income because generally, there has just been an incremental increase in the forecast of income being received and post COVID. We didn't do that because, pending the economic recovery and we felt it was appropriate this year to do a fundamental review as to where we were up to, but also pre, COVID and the trends and what we've done is taken an approach that has relying this to realistic levels because you know what we try to do is is be more more prudent with our income because

well effectively we don't want to overestimate the income where it's possible, so we haven't completely reduced it to where we believe the trend is, but slightly above giving some growth in year, so I would say that you know happy to take any comments or thoughts on that but we have tried to put a really pragmatic and realistic approach to income.

thank you for that.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:53:21

as I said, most of them are reductions in income, I mean the

let me say this is quite a significant reduction throughout quite a few categories for for the lifeline income I didn't know if there's no, so I isn't underlining the reason behind that is, is there competition in the market for for similar services that maybe cost of more cost-effective in our services or you know the other just not people not using those but they've got access to better technology or whatever it might be, I mean,

be interesting to know if this sort of underlying trends which which is leading to quite a significant reduction in income and how that balances against.

that level of expenditure in that area as well.

Lydia Morrison - 0:54:16

other lifeline services is going to beginning to undertake a fundamental review of its service, including costs out servings, of whether it's the best way and approach that it is the first continue to deliver it as it is, I don't know if you wanted to add anything Andy.

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 0:54:32

thanks it's something we've been looking at for quite a while now we do get new clients every month we get between 40 and 50 new clients every month, but I think the cost of living crisis particularly, and since COVID has been having a massive effect on the client numbers dropping off, so on average we probably lose about 70 to 80 clients that are dropping off and, as I was that maybe there is too expensive or maybe they're just won the lifeline anymore, or maybe they're going into care

we've done quite a lot with the rebranding and trying to market the service and do a lot of work with the care navigators from the NHS, and lots of other organisations is top of that, I think, is a tough market.

a high cost service.

but, as I say, we are looking at it to see what we can do moving forward and whether we can make it more profitable.

but yeah is slightly concerning at the moment we do benchmark our prices against all of our competitors, and so there is a competitive market.

we haven't put our prices up for a number of years and obviously, if we've kept our prices, our costs are still going up in line with inflation, but we've had to keep our prices at the same level to reflect what the competitors are doing so it's a bit of a tricky situation at the moment but we are, we are aware of it and we are looking at it.

can I thank you for that.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:55:52

any anything else on on the budget strategy, again, just to echo the comments about the consultation period and the fact that it extends quite close to work to when Full Council will actually meet, so hopefully we will get a good number of responses or an increased number of responses from previous years which has historically been low but,

it is what it is.

I would just with with the court with or with the consultation, something that the there does travel me a little bit is the assumptions we're making about that that capital expenditure you mentioned sign the Civic Centre relocation, the leisure centre, obviously there has been no formal decisions made about.

progressing that work in an and and moving to those specific things, so I don't know how we can talk or mention in the conversation that you know those, those that those numbers that that capital borrowing isn't isn't exactly as yet set in stone it is just the predictions, the assumptions that are being made just to just to perhaps give or give our residents.

have a better sense of of the FA financial pick, the longer-term financial picture.

thank you, I do agree the figure within the capital programme is a

Mr Ola Owolabi - 0:57:14

projection of what we are planning to do, however, if that would be included within the consultation, I'm sure we find a diplomatic paragraph to be able to express that clearly thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:57:31

10. There's no more comments or questions again, paper is just it's just for noting, because this will go to her to Cabinet and, I believe, go to full Council, but your strategy usually goes to full Council doesn't as well, so again there'll be another opportunity to comment on this and we agree we're happy to accept.

the report.

6 Options Report on whether to continue to maintain Kent County Council (KCC) owned grass in the District, which is subsidised by Folkestone & Hythe District Council (FHDC)

agreed thank you OK item number 6, so an options report on whether to continue to make Kent County Council KCC owned grass in the district, which is subsidised by focusing on hive district council.

Andy or you can lead on this, thank you for this report outlines the

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 0:58:13

current arrangement with Kent County Council to maintain rural and urban verges, and the financial implications of this replacing the Hart District Council various options are outlined in the report for consideration to reduce budgets in line with the star chamber exercise. The report asks Cabinet to approve option 2 A which is to continue provided by the urban and rural maintenance service to KCC but reduce the rural suede coat cut

to the KCC required frequency of one rather than the two cuts. The Air A F HTC currently provide for a period of 12 months only and then option 5 to defer a wider decision with further consideration to be given to handing back the whole service to KCC in 12 months for the 25 26 financial year. Following the approval of options 2 and 5, should Cabinet be minded to explore option 4, which is to consider retaining some of the high profile areas to enhance the appearance of the district, further work will need to be carried out by officers and a further report will be presented to Cabinet in due course. This item has been brought to Finance and performance Sub-Committee for Members. To note the paper and provide any feedback ahead of the Cabinet, made her happy to take any questions

thank you Andy, and I'll open it up to members for four questions or

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:59:23

comments, any Member wishing to speak on this item.

Councillor Dawson.

very tenuously, I was just.

checking.

Cllr Laura Davison - 0:59:36

yeah, I think I was a bit confused by some of the options so would be helpful to have clarity on that because it talks about.

option 5 deferment of a decision with further consideration to be given to handing back to the contractor KCC but then elsewhere in the report it reads much more like the decision would be made at this point and then the work would be done over the course of the next year. So I just wanted to clarify which of those it is because there they're not the same thing yet the latter, so the decision will be

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:00:18

made by cabinet and then work through that over the next year, unless Cabinet decide in a year's time, if it didn't want us to do it, but there's further work to be done also with option 4 with retaining, so it is quite complicated with retaining some of the areas, for instance. Obviously, we are investing heavily through the levelling-up bid and the projects through the town centre. So areas like Station roundabout in places like that, which is a good example, are owned by KCC. Would we want to give that back, or would we want to retain it at our cost?

so the paper is generally suggesting that the service is given back in 12 months to provide the saving to the Council, but then there's the possibility of some elements could be retained.

it could have been for this financial year but a significant risk that handing the service back now would lead to us not having a contractor in place by April next year and then the grass not getting car to within the district until KCC managed to get a contractor in place so to pay it so the papers is going towards deferring that decision was making us what savings we can now with the WRU reducing the rules with cuts of 1 which is option 2 a which saves 17,000 pounds for this financial year and then a wider decision to to make the decision now to get the service back in 12 months' time.

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:01:36

if I could just come back on that, then it might be an might just need to reward that option 5 then, because I think you know, you're talking about.

the decision being taken now that the def, the deferment being the implementation of that decision is that that's what I think that you said that right yes yeah, so our option 5 talks about deferment of the decision in my my understanding of that but sorry just just maybe a language thing just those, so it's clear I'm getting nods to my left and not sure as to my right so I do know but that that was my reading of it, I was, I was confused by the report

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:02:25

did you want to come back on that, or should we come back to it in a little bit?

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:02:32

we'll make it clear in introduction to to the Cabinet paper yeah, OK, thank you.

Councillor Godfrey and then Councillor Buchanan.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:02:43

just or an observation that everyone was.

Cllr David Godfrey - 1:02:49

I understand that this is all about public perception too, whether they like their Burgess cut or whether they don't know and co, nonetheless be cutting them. The more complaints you get from some quarters, less from others and the one thing that does jump ahead of me we have to be careful when it comes to highway vision when we're cutting some of these virtues because I've had complaints that people can't see round roundabouts all round corners because it's been let grow too long, nothing. That's something we have to keep mindful in mind. That's all

Councillor Butcher

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:03:20

yeah, I was just thinking that at Full Council we voted in favour of

Cllr James Butcher - 1:03:24

the motion to look at the things called the Preston model for local procurement.

in any case, one argument could be that option 5 moves away from that to less local procurement, so whether consideration needs to be given to that so far, direction of travel is gonna be to local procurement.

does that make a difference to how favourably we look at that option?

thank you.

did you only come back on that briefly or I would just say, with

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:03:52

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:03:54

regards to the procurement of the KCC assets, so it's not down to us they, we do the contract on their behalf, in some cases he would do the procurement.

Cllr James Butcher - 1:04:07

yeah, I guess I guess I was thinking if, if option 5 means that the the the contract is provided by people out or businesses or contractors outside of the district.

but that that would seem a different direction of travel than we were voting in favour of at Full Council unless I have misunderstood.

it will be sorry maybe I'm confused as it would be. KCC's procurement is not that we have a service level agreement where we perform the service on behalf of KCC, their cases, the assets, so it would be run by KCC procurement and up to them who they procured in the future. Yeah yeah and the the implication I thought of our motion was to do as much give as many contracts out locally, as we could. We do all the work in house currently apart from the rural grass cutting which requires specialist equipment to a local contractor yeah, so we wouldn't it wouldn't the implication be of option 5 that we'd be less business, would be going to local businesses potentially brilliant, rural grass cutting, although I suspect because he knows it so well, they rely heavily on using him yeah.

thanks, Councillor Butcher, although it would also be right in

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:05:17

thinking then if we at some point looked at option 4 and looked a sort of cherry picking and keep some of the that the those areas that we thought were of quite substantial significance, there could be scope for local procurement to to to tend to those sites or, I think the most cost effective way of doing that depending upon how many sites it

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:05:38

would be would be to.

absorb it within our current teams in house

if we were going to outsource anything, it would be with local contractors.

any other, any other comments or questions on this.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:05:52

OK, just to clarify, on a

sorry, Andy I'm right in thinking that we're currently the only council.

that the pace low, the the the provides, this sort of service, a lot of the other districts.

sort of handed back this this service, this work to do to KCC already.

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:06:20

predominantly, yes, I think we're the only one that carries out the rural working, I think, to other districts, it does say in a report on, I think two other districts, including Dover, do carry out the urban grass, which is already in a 30 miles per hour areas within the district but predominantly all of the other authorities have given it back, probably over the last 10 years I would say,

yes, so we're a minority and then to address Councillor Godfrey's point in terms of the visual amenity the safety concerns, do we have any information from from other districts who only who KCC only do they have diverges whatever whatever they provide no additional from from the districts as the level of inequality and do we have any do we have any information on that that might impact?

the decision, I think, with regards to the visibility suites, which is the prime area of concern, which is the route, the corners of the rural burgers, where I can potentially get long, and they're currently cut three times a year.

there is no proposal in art in what we're saying here in the report for the next 12 months, we will continue to do that three times a year on behalf of KCC, and they're very keen on continuing that so even if they took the service back to KCC that would still be done three times a year, I think because the rest of it I think reducing the rules.

verge cutting into one cup per year, I don't think that's gonna have an effect on safety, visual amenity, yes, but then you can outweigh that with the environmental effects of that and the ecology impact, which is also going to be a positive and I think with regards to the urban verges six times a year.

it doesn't look as good as being cut 10 times a year, obviously, but it keeps it to a level, and I think it's much more important for us to focus on our parks and amenity areas and the people, the places in areas where people want to go to enjoy those spaces and focus our resources on those areas, and then, if we've got spare capacity after that, we cut the verges more frequently. But again, if that was to transfer back to KCC, it would only be six times a year, whereas sometimes we cut them up to 10 times a year and is normally between six and 10, depending on how much is riding. How much is growing other priorities, machine breakdown, staffing levels and all the other things that we have to contend with

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:08:48

thank you, Councillor Dobson yeah, I I just wanted to ask about the

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:08:53

the difference between making that decision at 2.00 to do it now and it happening in a year's time what what would that mean in terms of the difference for the So in option 3 it talks about high impact,

reputationally, that the service would be delivered by an external cases, contractor who would potentially lack the local knowledge currently with the in-house team could lead to issues such as accidentally cutting areas where bulbs are planted, et cetera, which could lead to complaints and poor appearance to the district, what's what's gonna change in terms of that if a decision is taken to do that now but it not being implemented for a year how will that ameliorate that and what would be the potential things that could be done around?

mitigating any impact on our in our staff.

the main difference in option 3 and option 5 as you point out is one

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:09:48

would be to hand it back now with option 5.

so making the decision now and then deferring handing the service back for 12 months gives us time to work with KCC to highlight all the areas the

that need, highlighting and to work with them through their procurement, to have a smooth handover, to also work through the staffing issues, are there any staff to transfer?

we would like to be able to keep any good quality stuff that we have and through a 12 month period and natural wastage, etc

with some people leaving the service and coming in, you'd expect to balances sort of balanced at 2.00 p requirement.

easier for incoming well say it's easier for an incoming contractor not to have the TUPE implications they could be put off by our pension rights from things like that with the KCC pension, which makes contracts more expensive for an incoming contractor that wouldn't normally pay those sorts of things so that could make it easier for an incoming contractor, but again, if they have staff transferring over with some of the local knowledge that Councillor, there's a bit of a balancing out there, but the main thing is is the 12 month period. We would have time to work with KCC work through them with their procurement, get everything set up properly, we can maintain everything over the next cutting season to a high standard. They have plenty of time to work on their procurement and then we are probably not handover period.

so it would minimise the risk as much as possible.

anything else, Councillor Dobson.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:11:23

no.

Councillor Carter yeah, I'm hoping Laura can help me because I don't want to get to see this paper in a week's time when the

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:11:35

recommendations were clear to me and now they're not clear to me and I'm

either law is right and I need to repeat this much harder in a different way differently, or I've read it in a different way.

as far as I can see, the recommendations which are being put to Cabinet are under option 3 to approve 2 A immediately, so it says so. Recommendation 3 is that we would've been due option 2 8 immediately, so we would continue to provide the urban and rural maintenance service, but the rural suave would be cut from one cut next year, not 2, so that I understand you just that's what it would be from April and then. Recommendation 4 is to approve option 5, which is the deferment of a decision with from the further consideration of the contract handing back the KCC contract in 12 months that option 5 deferment of the decision means that we won't make. As far as I understand, it means that we will not make the decision on whether to hand it back to KCC or not until we've got some more information on how they would do that contract and what how they would deliver that contract, and that Cabinet would then make that decision. Sorry, actually, committee would make that decision some time in the next financial year prior to the budget setting process for 25 26, so the deferment is literally don't make the decision on giving it back yet get more information in the next financial year and then make the decision this time next year, and that's the way I would have read that so if,

OK in that case, Hendy needs to explain that to me, I don't know.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:13:08

well, my understanding of it was that you would make the decision to hand the service back in 12 months, but what make the decision and then defer the action for 12 months while work was undertaken, but the decision would be made.

by cabinet next week I mean, that's how, so I read the recommendations.

that is the intention.

Cllr Tim Prater - 1:13:30

OK.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:13:40

I had at 1.00 point on this one.

slept at my head.

I guess we've probably answered, it really are.

I think I think it is probably the most sensible route to go down, but in terms of reporting back on the work that would happen should option 5 be approved by Cabinet.

how would that happen, and where would we see before before it's all handed back, where will we see that the sites that we are in and how would that how would that process evolve those key sites and what they might look like and and what work might be done if any and all of that?

Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:14:26

whereas up to cabinet obviously ask us to explore that in the first place we would provide a list of key sites, I would have thought, would work through with the portfolio holder or a committee report, depending on where we were, where exactly we are on and get approval to make recommendations about which areas would be retained and the cost of doing so and then feature that properly into next year's budget setting process I would have thought with regard to the customer applications of that thank you.

so once again.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:14:57

both those major options are off after Cabinet next week, but hopefully we were provided some sort of clarity before that, Councillor Richards, do you want to just come quickly, I was just going to say that we're being asked for our views, I'm happier with

Cllr James Butcher - 1:15:12

Tim's version of it where this, rather than making a decision then doing some work which might make you think you wanted to make a different decision, I'll be happy with that version of the final decision isn't going to be made for you.

if we're being asked for our opinion, Councillor Procter might might take that on board.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:15:28

sorry, Italy, yes, vote for us again, it's to receive a note and just just note the various options, and I think we've had a discussion on a number of them, so are we happy to to receive a note this report agreed,

let me thank you.

the next item is item number 7, so the waste and street cleaning savings proposals and we will receive a presentation.

7 Waste & Street Cleansing Saving Proposals

Mr Ewan Green - 1:16:02

thank you, and thank you Chair evening members, yes, the presentation I've got this evening alongside the the supplementary briefing note,

circulated formed the basis of

the recommendations to Cabinet next week.

and in terms of the presentation, if I just.

guarantee a few slays for you as to position this.

so I out of the budget development process that we've gone through over the last few months in including the star chamber that's been referenced already.

what we've got here this evening.

are the first two, the first two actions there and negotiate contracts savings and reduce the cost of street litter bins?

the reductions in the contract, so that's the cost reductions that were seeking to progress.

item seen for our fee increases.

and they, of course, will be reflected in the fees and charges report as it moves through the the the budget setting process that was outlined earlier.

I think.

important to state at the start, and I think we've made this clear in the briefing notes to you that fee increases are fairly straightforward and can be achieved in year.

but there is a process to work through on items 1 and 2 there, in terms of the larger savings that we have to work through with people here as a contractor, and that, and the sense of the basis of the cabinet report is seeking approval to have to start that negotiation and then come back to members with further details and I think we've also said that the intention would be to meet the savings 0 of 230,000 pounds but there is probably unlikely that's achievable.

all in the first year, but again, that has to come back through that process of working with purely upon that.

so the first proposal then.

is a reduction in the street cleansing contract?

and that largely is based on.

reducing the what we call Zone Z standard.

of off street cleansing and those ads are effectively areas of Folkestone and Hythe town centres that were in the maps that were appended in the briefing note and

these savings would would largely be achieved through a reduction in the number of cranes and operatives working with failure, and that would be achieved over a period of time through staff turnover and natural turnover of staff.

and then I'm thinking the briefing note, what we've also said as well.

whilst that that feels like that, that is a change in the standard of the service, we certainly would not be proposing anything that isn't meeting the Deaf for litter Code of practice.

which is the standard that we set as the basic standard.

across the district,

it's also a relatively small area, it's 3,000 metres roughly in terms of the total area, so.

if you take it geographically across the district, it's quite small, but these, of course are more prominent areas as well, so recognising that there will be some concerns about this.

certainly in that, in that negotiation that we have to have with Yulia, there are likely to be consideration of how that saving would reflect in the performance standards required within the contract.

and moving on to the next one, then that's the reduction of street litter bins, and I guess what we've found here is that over a period of time, there's been a bit of creep in the number of bins that we have across the district.

on a number of errors and 112.

companies think we have and that the annual cost here.

we recognise that the litter bin stock is ageing and we have a very limited budget for replacing bins.

we've had a freeze on new bins or a new additional bins.

since 2021.

but clearly, I think, for what we're suggesting here is that we need to get into a process of reviewing locations, the amenity and condition of bins.

recognising that there are areas of need across the district, where, particularly the summer season, obviously there there are areas of great pressures on the street cleansing service and Le Pen bins, and there may be areas across the ship that don't have the same pressures.

so it feels like what we should be progressing here is a review across the whole of the

stock, as it were, to try and effect a change, no, I think part of that would obviously be local engagement, and I think there were very keen that we would engage with town and parish councils through that process, because there is a local knowledge there that would be very important.

and also of through time.

Over going through the process here, this is not about taking away bins that aren't required, this is about seeing what capacity bins do we need in the right places to make it the most effective service, so we're very keen to look at where there might be doubling, offer bins and required,

and also you know it is, is there a process in the future where we may replacements with higher capacity bins to to help to help address the the operational pressures that we have on a regular basis, as you will be aware of, particularly through the summer season?

onto the the bulky waste fee increase and quite a significant increase being.

suggested here, but this is purely based on getting to cost recovery at the moment, this is a service that runs at a loss for us, so by being the cost of the basic charge up to 53 pounds.

that means that we will, we will achieve full cost recovery.

it was less about income generation and more about ensuring cost recovery for what is a discretionary service.

and again I think that there is a continual risk that we do, we shouldn't be having a discretionary service that's running at a loss, so there is a key principle, their forests, and there may be concerns that through an increase in this level of fee for bulky waste of that meal,

that may some may give rise to an increase in fly-tipping, but we don't actually feel that that is a significant risk that they raise the the the advantage of cost recovery.

and moving on to the last one, then this is about an increase in the garden waste charge.

again, a discretionary service.

and we are proposing here to increase the fee from 53 pounds a year to 60 pounds a year.

and therefore.

for turning up, I think she surplus.

which actually is is quite important to offsetting the cost and the cost of cost increases in the whole contract Lewis' contract.

and certainly we've had our very, very steady membership of the garden, waste service and subscriptions.

Over the last two or three years.

so I think what you're on balance, whilst you may think that an increase would be perhaps some cause, a problem and perhaps a risk a reduction in subscribers again, we feel about it, that's a very minimal risk.

and taking the opportunity to increase their charge is the right thing to do, given the whole context of the budget setting process and the challenges we face as a Council, so I will stop there too, and having two questions.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:24:29

thank you, urine, and if Members will allow me just to address the last part first just was stretching my mind.

so garden garden waste collection.

obviously it's already in the fees and charges report that's going to Cabinet next week.

so the increase you said, 60 pounds increase, if, if someone wants to pay annually is only from 53 to 57 pounds 20.

so that that seems in line with you'll understand and sort of increase across the whole range of fees and charges that are being proposed.

for the next financial year, however, a direct debit charge.

would be again low risk this current year it was the same 53, but that's where we would be charging the 60 pounds, so my question is, why why are we charging 2 pounds 84 someone to pay by direct debit if, if we're going to increase the fee to 60 pounds and shouldn't both?

the annual charge and the direct debit charge be the same as they are in this current financial year.

Mr Ewan Green - 1:25:50

it's a very good point to raise thank you to you and I'll have to.

take advice on that, I suspect it should be the same, so thank you for picking up and I will revert to you as soon as possible after the meeting.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:26:05

thank you, OK, and now I will open up to two members to talk about the other wider proposals.

Councillor Councillor, Godfrey.

Good luck with any negotiating with Veolia, but I think you indicated

Cllr David Godfrey - 1:26:18

that negotiator would tend to be towards the amount of staff that we add to the service.

reducing that amount, rather than getting them to reduce their costs, is that what you were aiming at?

when no, I think so meagre, probably wasn't clear enough.

our informal conversations will be about how the Dutton, if there's

Mr Ewan Green - 1:26:42

like the reduction in cost would be met, would be through natural wastage and not return, not replacing vacant posts because there is a challenge in that service from the earlier staff cohort, so what we're suggesting is that the savings would be achieved over a period of time.

utilising vacancies are sending a view on the are staffing structure.

OK, I repeat Good luck with that.

Cllr David Godfrey - 1:27:07

let's see what comes of we negotiated with Veolia because they're going to have increased costs and arguments about not reducing come at the cost of, obviously the reduction in street litter bins, we know that people are very keen on keeping the district tidy so the review of the state of them of course we should be doing that all the time reducing them is gonna lead to an outcry I suspect and there's also the danger of increasing fly tipping, I suspect.

increased bulky waste collection and increase in garden waste charge, I don't have a real difficulty with that, I personally do pay for the garden waste charge, nothing is cheap, and I think it costs me more to run it down, as both collections are myself.

so I'm happy to or to suggest that most people would take that, but probably keep it, I could be wrong, but those of Scott gardens are grateful for that service so really are very nervous about 1 and 2 I think it would've never can of worms, but you may just have to do that on 3 and 4 I'd go along with

I thank Councillor, Godfrey Councillor Buchanan.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:28:14

Cllr James Butcher - 1:28:18

yeah thanks Chair, I guess there's the the things connect, don't know, because we're talking about a something like a 25% reduction in the number of litter bins, but also reducing some of the standards about how quickly full litter bins are rented. So I, I guess both of these proposals may building sugar it is, is there a rationale behind? The 7 7 5 figure is in some way of saying the reason we're saying 7 7 5 is because nationally it's recognised that you need on the whole list many bins per head of population, or is it yeah, where do we arrive at that number?

because that's part of how we sell things isn't it, I think to people, is to say no, there's a reason we're saying 7 7 5 is because

so I think what we've done, there is look at 1.00 of the challenges

Mr Ewan Green - 1:29:08

we're trying to face a 12 and 12 and a half per cent reduction across costs where we can do we looked at that and then looked at what the contract or what previous levels of of litter bins where and how that's grown and can and come to the conclusion that if we were to reduce to that level and we feel that,

on a key on a very crusty, high level, overview at the moment that that would be have enough, quantity of bins would be enough, rather than the right police done, lots of different question.

and on that latter point I guess that that's part of you've got clear

Cllr James Butcher - 1:29:44

criteria would need to be developed to justify removal, so I guess as part of that isn't it where we need them, but I guess there's just it, it would help to understand if we reduce it to 7 7 5. How does that align us with comparable places elsewhere even if it was kind of Canterbury or Dover just to have a sense of are we broadly in line

yeah, I think you're asking a very good question and I think with all

Mr Ewan Green - 1:30:08

of us and I understand the nervousness of any of Members when we talk about reducing street litter bins for sure and that's not lost on us as officers, but I think when we come back with more detail on this and that the whole point of this is starting this process so we can come back from the detail, I'm very happy to look at some kind of benchmarking, let me give you a better sense of how that sits against comparable districts,

Cllr James Butcher - 1:30:37

he added several more, which was whether any consideration had been given in the past to sponsorship for bins, because I think the cost is almost figures, something like 120 pounds a year or something to service, one of those bins so as a consideration had been given to business sponsorship or any of those things as a source of income.

not that I'm aware of, and certainly not in the time I've been here.

Mr Ewan Green - 1:30:59

I do feel if that had mileage, then the team would have brought that forward as an option, it's not something I've heard of coming out of Veolia or indeed a partner over either.

Cllr James Butcher - 1:31:15

you see roundabouts and flowerbeds sponsored, so there's the bizarre.

I'm happy to have a look at this genuinely, I suspect one of the

Mr Ewan Green - 1:31:23

challenges will be the condition of bins and the the they do take a lot of.

the the quality of the bin does deteriorate quickly, so I think there will be an issue there around the

the advertising, for example, from installers McDonald's could do

Cllr James Butcher - 1:31:40

given the amount of litter it has generated as to pay for some bins.

just to come back on that him, I am writing to, I mean I know

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:31:48

Folkestone Town Council obviously pays money for for four bins, I don't know if that's just for the physical bin itself or if they contribute something to to the to the emptying and the maintenance of those bins.

and how our our review would would include those stakeholders and possible local businesses, perhaps to try to come up with inventive ways to.

to fund the service

Mr Ewan Green - 1:32:18

well, I think in terms of businesses coming forward with ideas were going into consultation on the budget, we're taking it to the business functional business board, so I'm sure that that's an opportunity to to ask that question I do think that the the engagement with town and parish councils is essential because there are,

suggests we already have, from the folks, the money you've described there, there's local knowledge that is going to be really important in this, and indeed say at the media, opportunity to to fund our core fund in the future if we saw a need for additional bins and bin influence.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:32:56

counselling. Thank you, Chair, just to say, yes, I do agree that

Cllr John Wing - 1:32:59

sponsorship is a good idea, plus this may mean you can actually be moved out more areas if you have done, the leads have been sponsored, so that means there has been think-piece to be provided somewhere in the less group and moving onto the bulky waste stoppers in what you're saying, basically is free items with 53 pounds rather than this one item, Bishop Chi Wallbank first footfall. Further items would need to be charged more for those who presume

9 pounds an additional item per items is still 9 pound position item on top of 53.

okay so.

in any other Councillor Buchanan, another one.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:33:40

sorry, I forgot I'm going to say something else which is about little reduction because I guess there's the other side of the equation is

Cllr James Butcher - 1:33:46

how do we get people to be having less litter, to dispose of and just thinking about the carbon reduction lab and some of the organisations that have come through, and we're thinking the right thing, I think of all the sustainable futures forum, but there are lots of organisations around Folkestone that are really interested in reducing the amount of plastic litter and they feel like real allies in this in because that's gonna help us isn't it if there's less litter

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:34:15

Councillor Dobson yeah, thank you, so my kind of concerns and thoughts on on these various things.

if I put my ward councillor hat on then for Folkestone Central Ward, I definitely know that the idea of reducing the level of street cleaning in those key areas and would be an unpopular

proposal, and I am concerned about the detail around the reduction or proposed reduction that there could be in terms of the emptying of bins from one hour turnaround until for our turnaround. That's a really significant change, potentially in any contract negotiations, and so that would be by my concerns around that in terms of the the street litter bins, I've come up against this both ways myself, so you know, I've I've requested a being in an area where I would have thought it was legitimate for there to be an additional bin and was told no, we we when we're not putting a been there, I now realise why, because there has been a freeze in place, which I wasn't only became aware of really when I saw this report but also you see quite a lot of bins around the town that are in a really poor state of repair.

so I absolutely think it's right that we should be looking at the quality of our bins at the moment and doing that work. I don't think that should be pinned to a savings target, because I think that will confuse things and it will look like. It will feel like a kind of arbitrary number that's just connected to a percentage reduction. I think, as you you've explained, where that figure has come from and that probably won't serve us well in trying to get to a better place, and I do think there's lots of kind of creative suggestions that have even come out of this conversation about what we could look at around some of those things. So it could be quite a positive exercise, but if it's linked in with a cot, I think it could be perceived differently around the bulky waste collection charges and may my concern around. That would be whether that makes the service just inaccessible to some people because of the cost involved and the increase you know, where would that leave people who have an item, not three items. You know, they're looking at a at that increase just for one item, so is there anything that can be done in terms of mitigating the impact on,

lower income families or households within the district, and I don't know in terms of the figures that you gave there, whether that were, when you're talking about recouping costs, whether that's across the whole the whole number of collections that's done or whether that's on an individual collection I don't know what that calculation looks like.

and on the garden waste side of things I mean again

we've talked about this previously that there will be households where that services.

is relied on because people don't don't have cars and those won't all be higher income households, so has there been any sort of assessment of the impact on the households in our district who actually take that service and what the knock-on implications could be in terms of a drop off, for example, of people actually subscribing to it?

Mr Ewan Green - 1:37:28

thank you, Councillor Dobson, the whole number of points there that I think noted down and certainly that will take this into consideration as we bring this back to members in due course.

for further decisions, and I take the point about litter bins and the negativity and yes, but do you know if we this is about not just reduction but also our more effective service, including the service?

we haven't done any work yet and I am not entirely, I'm not sure that we will do any work necessarily that we can quantify in terms of impact on what would I think in the same year as low income households for some of the fee in the fee increases, but it's something I'm very happy to take away and look at how we can bring anything back on that has moved this report through the rest of the budget setting process through to February.

can I also just clarify I meant to when all of these proposals be part

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:38:24

of the budget consultation, so people will have the chance to comment on these proposals, OK thanks.

subject to subject to Cabinet approval next week, yes, yes.

Mr Ewan Green - 1:38:35

any comments or questions on the site.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:38:41

yeah, I'd just two again just to sort of clarify in the in the addendum we received about the

the Street, the Veolia contract negotiations where they were built, it says informally by all the advice that their staffing structures, so I mean if, if obviously they don't lose any staff and there's not really any savings passed on to us in the immediate term.

you know how I mean, how we sort of, how are we coming to that figure of 200,000? I mean if, if the earliest was pretty much say, Well, we haven't we haven't we haven't lost any staff, so there's not really any any saving to to be had in this in this year, so I mean that's what it implies in 3.4 maybe maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I mean with that in mind I mean, how are we linking what we all are saying to to that saving target of of 200,000

Mr Ewan Green - 1:39:45

I think it's very, very simply the point that this is about negotiation and a partnership, and clearly if.

what we're proposing and having thought this through I'll be informed at the moment, is that the way to achieve a reduction is through a reduction in staffing numbers, but that wouldn't be

in this proposal as a result of redundancies, this would be about through not filling vacancies over a period of time working to an agreed reduction in total, and I think my point at the start perhaps there should have been quieter was that something like that may not be achievable in year 1,

but subject to agreement of Council, if we move that forward, then we work towards that figure.

it was clarified that a little bit more.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:40:35

yeah, I mean personally I don't know I mean.

the fact that certain parts of the District get to get more attention and care than others.

I don't know or renew is the case, but obviously seeing it in black and white makes it makes it very clear, so I'm I'm a little bit torn about the impact, but then obviously if it's done on the same level as the rest of the district then then that that seems to that seems to strike a slight chord with me, I'd echo Councillor Davidson's point about the number of litter bins I'd add I'd much rather see a total review

and then, based on the review, we will look at the number of bins that we need.

I am sure this proposals, as Councillor Dobson said, about trying to get a pin in for over three years.

without much joy I'm going to have it and I haven't tried recently, obviously because Circus the the Beacon opinion are not as vocal as as as they have been recently, so I'm sure there's still the desire to have my bin at some point, so you know any sort of review where, where Councillors other others, other local stakeholders could feed into that and we could we could come up with a realistic number. You know sometimes you know, we've got we've got lots of bins where there could be one bin or the certain bins, and I always see that at that are constantly full or overflowing so

Even if they are, even if there was, or even if they reduced the amount of times they empty it or whatever, I don't think it would make any difference based on just it's the bin, that's got changes, not that not not the system, so I'd much rather see a very comprehensive review before setting sitting a figure of how many bins we think we might need or what that looks like.

and I still thought I'd still hope that as there's a lot of further work to go on that.

and

yeah, I, I think I think it's good practice personally that we're in line with with other districts in terms of bulky waste.

I thought our old system of quite a quite a hefty charge for one item was was quite extreme, I mean I've got to address that in Council previously.

I think it would it would be up to us, I would hope, to promote.

local communities, he noted, maybe to work together if if if, if my my neighbour had something that they want to dispose of and we could, we could have put them, put, put up three items together, save the costs, and I ask you know,

I think that's, I think that's sensible, but but I think I genuinely I think it's right that we're at Brunel, at least in line with over whom we share a lot of a lot of these services with so.

and custodian come back quickly.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:43:37

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:43:40

maybe if this was that the Council could facilitate people kind of item sharing in that in that sense, like car sharing, then then actually it would work out cheaper for people as a result of that, so that would be good to look at and just in terms of the points about the differences in levels of of cleaning it is stark to understand that and I think it hasn't necessarily been transparent previously but it absolutely chimes with what people have been saying anecdotally about parts of Folkestone certainly, but you know I would want us to look at levelling up in those areas where the service hasn't been good enough not reducing in other areas.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:44:25

he just does so, hopefully the cabinet member present is taking some of those comments on board ahead of ahead of the meeting next week and again register, which is noting the proposals and our comments will be received, so are we happy to receive a note the presentation great thank you.

and our final item for this evening item number 8, the overview of community grants, and again, there was a slight addendum, just clarifying some of the figures in table.

2.4

and we get you and you're going to introduce this as well, yeah yeah,

Mr Ewan Green - 1:45:02

thank you Chair, and I think we've got this forward that I think, in response to a question from yourself, actually in terms of just getting a bit more oversight on on what we're calling community grants, so I mean the report actively is just describing the process we've gone through in terms of budgeting,

8 Overview of Community Grants

that you are very well aware of, and then presenting the high level figures that we consider to be under a community grant umbrella, if you'd like, and that's made up of community grants from the general fund, which starts money in the General Fund, that's being reviewed and indeed member world grants and you will see that in the appendices we've provided.

a list of the peculiar community based grant giving out in the current financial year.

and proposed in the next financial year, although the ones for 2045 are obviously subject to budget setting and indeed further discussion, and I think throughout that process and also in the other appendices we've given just for full disclosure and oversight.

a list of the Member World drugs that are being distributed, and he will note Members that part of the proposal in this in this paper, and indeed in the budget setting that we've been discussing is a reduction in the Member, the total value of the Member World plants from 90,000 a year to 75,000 a year and,

I will stop there until this report really was more for information to aid your considerations, moving forward but happy to take any questions as well, thank you very much, Ian, and I'll open it up to members any comments or questions.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:46:34

Councillor Butcher

thanks Chair yeah.

Cllr James Butcher - 1:46:42

well, I suppose just to note that the Member grants have been cut more substantially in percentage terms than the Community Grants. Just wondered if there's a rationale for that, but perhaps most significantly, I'm interested in the geographical distribution of community grant, so I may just scanning through there's a lot of mention of faiths and hides some of Romney Marsh, but it's not clear how well distributed across the district the community grants are whether we have data on that and do we do any kind of analysis of the kind of theme so there's quite a bit around sports there, some around are some around community, but whether we have any way of analyzing

where where a grant has been given, so not just geographically, but the kind of thing we're supporting, and how well does that align with our corporate plan and so on, so I just wondered if that analysis gets done at some point.

Mr Ewan Green - 1:47:36

there's certainly more analysis that we can provide, nothing is done on a spatial basis, I think, a number of the grants there are through service level agreements that are with, I guess, historic relationships, so fortunately, what's in a trust, for example,

others are for smaller amounts of grant and that will respond to opportunities to come in year.

particularly some of the sportsman's that you recognise there are referenced here, sorry in the last year have come about through the partnership working that the teams do on the ground to make a small contribution that match funds, other contributions, so there's not geographic.

could certainly do some mapping for years that would help.

but certainly not from a part of he looked for work to date, I think in terms of the the word trans am I right in thinking that that was, I think, a 15% reduction, so I'm not clear on that yeah a 15% reduction that through the star chamber process and debate with members that was felt that that would be an appropriate level to recommend.

moving forward.

Cllr James Butcher - 1:48:54

I think that geographical analysis is important in terms of people feeling like there's a fair distribution of resources, particularly at a time when we're talking about reductions in services, there's quite a substantial 400.

of grant, if we think of some of the cuts we're seeking to make, it's just, I guess, wanting to feel that if you live in Hawkins, you feel like you're getting a fair.

Fair access to these kinds of grants just as much as if you live in Folkestone or New Romney or wherever

yeah, I don't know the point you're making is well made, I think

Mr Ewan Green - 1:49:28

member grants walkouts are obviously geographic now, so there is the opportunity there and I think I think historically this has built up over a period of time that logically some of the larger grants are sports and to trust the citizens advice Bureau which provides services and district rate as well, so it's perhaps not obvious that a number of these grants whilst based but potentially Foxman, for example, do benefit across the district

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:49:59

I was just going to highlight, obviously what you just said, that the Rainbow Centre, for example, I mean they have the highest paltry, they've outreach, you know across across the district and various other, so it would be, it would be.

tricky, I guess, to sort of accurately mapped how.

how the funding distributes.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:50:27

I mean, I guess it worked, but we've got both three hills and focus

Cllr James Butcher - 1:50:30

and sports centre getting funding, and although you could argue those are district wide, they're not, they're not, really you know, for some people that that's quite a journey in.

it just feels important to me that we should be transparent about distributing things fairly across the district.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:50:53

like any other members, Councillor Dobson yeah, thank you, I mean it's

Cllr Laura Davison - 1:51:00

interesting to see the list of community grants, because I think it hasn't necessarily been clear to me, maybe it has to others how these kind of.

what the list looks like, and I think it's sensible to kind of look at these things.

because historic relationships isn't necessarily the best basis for decision-making. You know all the time, there can be really good reasons why certain organisations are funded on an ongoing basis and should continue to be so, and indeed we might argue that actually that some of the funding should be inflation linked because the the the real value of some of the grant goes down significantly over time. So but just looking at that, the the proposals here I was but I was concerned to see the Academy from 1. I think most of the grants are matched across the the columns, but the Academy affirm, one is is halved and that seems a significant reduction, and I don't know what conversations have been had about that proposal, but

you know that that looked to me that these are not huge sums of money but could have a really significant impact on.

on a small organisation and then in terms of the reduction of the Member Ward Grant, I am, I am concerned about that, because that is money that goes direct to was councillors' wards, you know it has a geographic element to it, as Councillor Butcher was raising and,

that money goes directly into community organisations that are doing really good work, so I wouldn't want to see a reduction in that funding.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:52:47

is there any rationale behind the specific reduction in the Academy from Grantley you know about or you could get back to us about that?

Mr Ewan Green - 1:52:59

I will come back to you on that Chair, thank you, I think I will refer back to the discussions in the Star Chambers and further detail, thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:53:09

Councillor White, thank you him, especially after the recent decision

Cllr John Wing - 1:53:12

by KCC to cut the CHA services, I think certainly and obviously summaries do fit and some done I just wondered about it, to actually know when did this year a year, two ships and the other one is that because the actual things actually ended itself or is it just not subject to giving the money towards it or not?

Mr Ewan Green - 1:53:32

on the toll ships one, yes, I then was ended, and I think that the the proposal in the budget is that, whilst there are many benefits of that project, at a time when we are where we are needing to meet reductions in the overall budget, perhaps that 25,000 pounds

wasn't best spent on that project in the future because for next year or the year after, and that's not to say that the relationship stops with the organisers and in due course, if there is funding becomes available in the future, then we might want to resurrect it, but I think through the star chamber process the conversation was about the reach of that funding that we could perhaps school or wider than just on that that's bespoke project.

I'm just one more question and I mean I'm sure some recent historic,

Cllr John Wing - 1:54:21

but how did actually dropped this list heard about she is the symbol of over the years, as its songs evolved over the years there was every years it looked at and where you fit the bus money be spent a walk.

Mr Ewan Green - 1:54:36

I think that the detail of this has always has always been available in the budget at some level, although I do appreciate the point that was made about it hasn't actually come before you in this form before, for that, perhaps our oversight.

many of these grants, for example, larger ones, are based on three-year funding agreements that come before Cabinet.

others, when you get into the smaller amounts.

are, by and large responses to partnership working, the team is doing on the ground every day and opportunities to come, so I suppose I fear to give flexibility in there in terms of quite a number of the smaller ones, not through this is not through a grant process where we we have a call for guidance, people make applications, we have a number of other schemes that do that, so this is more about the partnership working approach.

anything else.

Cllr Connor McConville - 1:55:27

just do it, I mean just to add.

to the Tall ships conversation, although it looks like a reduction in 25,000 as it's a two year programme at its Y would essentially be committed to the 50,000 you couldn't just do one year because you you don't have the full year you don't have the full programme delivered so I think it's I think it's important to sort of factor that in

Over this over the whole picture of the of the scheme.

how are we going to start talking?

for myself personally.

I think that the ward, the ward grants, are an invaluable part of of the community, I think.

although we looked down this list, no one, apart from one or two quite large.

organisations that we help support, and this is quite as quite limited what we, what we can do as a Council to to support our our local community, so I, I think, the doubled grants.

are essential from, apart from maybe one or two Councillors, I believe I need every every every penny is spent every year, so you know if, if there was history of those funds not being utilised, then perhaps that'd be worth a conversation saying that,

there could be other uses for those farms, but I don't think there's evidence, I don't think there is evidence of that.

for the sake of 15,000, I think I think there's this, there's there's far better, it's far better ways, I would hope that we could we could try and identify some some similar savings.

again, it kind of feels like it's just set to a target rather than than looking at the look we're looking at the whole picture, I think of all the things looked at tonight, I mean this would probably be my least preferred to to start cutting any money that we put to the community.

obviously, well, when I sort of brought the idea of this to Council.

some months ago, the idea is that we would get to look in the round at what money we we we we get out to the community as a council still be my in my hope, I guess that we would have some sort of some sort of grants committee sort of,

where where, where councillors would have more control over what money goes out and to whom and in what fashion?

support, you know, not replacing out our member grants, but in supplement to that, I mean in I I appreciate, you know, the the financial position we're in this year, but in in terms of longer-term blue-sky thinking, much to primary Lydia's horror, I would probably see the overall budget more than doubled. I'd like to see us have close to 1 million pounds a year to work to distribute to community

her services and projects and and all of that, but I think there are many, many years away from that.

any other anything else on this item.

OK, if not, then we'll again just agree to receive a note this report, and I wish you all a very pleasant evening.

thank you,

Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee - Tuesday 5 December 2023, 6:00pm - Feedback Tab - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting