Audit and Governance Committee

Audit and Governance Committee
Wednesday, 6th December 2023 at 6:00pm

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Slide 1
Cllr Liz McShane
Mrs Sue Lewis
Cllr Liz McShane

2 Declarations of Interest

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Declarations of Interest

Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr John Wing
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Adrian Lockwood
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane

3 Minutes

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Final Minutes - USE THIS SET

Cllr Liz McShane
Mrs Amandeep Khroud
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane
Mr Paul Butler

4 Review of Polling District and Polling Places 2023

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Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane
Mrs Sue Lewis
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr John Wing
Cllr Adrian Lockwood
Cllr Liz McShane
Adrian Tofts

5 Update to Corporate Risk Register

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Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Adrian Lockwood
Adrian Tofts
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr James Butcher
Adrian Tofts
Cllr James Butcher
Adrian Tofts
Mrs Amandeep Khroud
Cllr James Butcher
Adrian Tofts
Cllr James Butcher
Adrian Tofts
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr John Wing
Cllr Liz McShane

6 Quarterly Internal Audit Update Report from the Head of East Kent Audit Partnership

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December 2023 EKAP update ctte report v7

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Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr James Butcher
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Cllr James Butcher
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Cllr James Butcher
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Cllr James Butcher
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Cllr Liz McShane
Lydia Morrison
Mr Andy Vanburen
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Cllr Liz McShane
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Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Adrian Lockwood
Cllr Liz McShane

7 Grant Thornton Audit Plan for the Year Ended 31 March 2023

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Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane
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Cllr Liz McShane
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8 Update on Change of Governance Arrangements

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Report - Governance update

Cllr Liz McShane
Mrs Amandeep Khroud
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr John Wing
Mrs Amandeep Khroud
Cllr John Wing
Mrs Amandeep Khroud
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr David Wimble
Mrs Amandeep Khroud
Cllr David Wimble
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr James Butcher
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane
Mrs Sue Lewis
Cllr David Wimble
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane

9 Annual Governance Statement Actions - update on 2023/24 actions

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Mrs Amandeep Khroud
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr James Butcher
Mrs Amandeep Khroud
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Adrian Lockwood
Cllr Liz McShane
Cllr Liz McShane
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

1 Apologies for Absence

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:00:07

Good evening, everyone and welcome to the December meeting of the autumn, audit and governance committee in the last quarter of 2023.

this meeting will be webcast live to the internet, so for those of you who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you will need to leave the Chamber.

for members officers and others speaking at the meeting, it is important that the microphones are used, so viewers on the webcast, and others in the room may hear you.

would anyone with a mobile phone please switch off the silent mode as they can be distracting, I would like to remind Members that, although we all have strong opinions on matters under consideration, it is important to treat members, officers and public speakers with respect.

Mrs Sue Lewis - 0:00:59

so item number 1, apologies for absence, yesterday we've had one from Councillor Grant, Councillor Grant anything from Councillor Womble,

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:01:05

lateness or okay.

2 Declarations of Interest

declarations of interest pages 5 to 6.

any declarations.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:01:19

Cllr James Butcher - 0:01:20

yes, Chair, so I declare an interest as director of opportunities, any

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:01:25

others Councillor wing yeah, so it not the digital opportunities

Cllr John Wing - 0:01:28

Councillor Lockwood.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:01:32

Cllr Adrian Lockwood - 0:01:33

I was a director of opportunities, thank you.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:01:37

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:01:43

can I just ask a question, sorry sorry, moving two minutes from last meeting.

3 Minutes

I did myself.

pages 7 to 22 anything arising.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:02:02

I would just like to we talked about the earlier last time and I just wondered in item 15 on page 3, it just talks about sorry, no item, Peter sorry, page 5,

just before Item 19.

it sums up what we talked about by the only discussion, is there any update, so when can we get an update on discussions that had been had with DEFRA contract County Council County Council?

does anybody here were able to just be sent back to an officer to give us an update on that?

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 0:02:36

thank thank you for your question Chair, I don't think any of the relevant officers are here, but certainly following the meeting I can ask the relevant officers to to send you an e-mail, thank you.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:02:51

are we all happy with the minute?

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:02:58

so moving on to Item 4 review of polling district and polling places 2023, that's when pages 23 to 38 of the document.

Mr Paul Butler - 0:03:10

thank you Chair, thanking everyone just to go through a couple of highlights in the report, so the polling District Station and places review started on Monday, the second type of this year and concluded on the 17th November the consultation period ran for just over six weeks inviting comments.

4 Review of Polling District and Polling Places 2023

representations against the current set-up of polling district stations and places, as well as any comments on the Act and returning returning officers proposals and in addition to the statutory requirements we sent out over 900.

e-mails to contacts and community groups and suchlike, and it resulted in 24.

comments and submissions being made that is reflective of previous reviews as well, and so building on from the comments, representations and proposals from the acting returning officer within the report under Appendix 2 and is the recommendations.

I'll just go through the highlights from that as well and Safer Broadmead be all one mood, and the proposal is to keep Broadmead as one polling district and to change the polling place from Grace Taylor Hall to Foakes and Sports Centre for Cheriton C H 2 to move the polling place from 1st Cheriton Scout Hut to the Shorncliffe pavilion when it's up and running.

for hate rural.

in particular, polling districts which are one and which are to proposal to keep HR 1 and which are to intact.

without moving any boundary lines and to keep windpipe house as the polling place for HD-One electors.

in Romney, Marsh so are in two polling district proposal to keep deemed Church Village Hall as the polling place for are them to electors.

and then finally for Arnhem Romney, Marsh to move the polling place from thermal church hall to the shepherd and cook in, and just a final comment from me, I just want a note of thanks to all that were involved with it them for past polling stations and places and for those that are allowing us to procure them for future venues' where we can't do it without them, so it's Wednesday night that thanks.

and I'll welcome any questions on the report.

the security of any questions for pull.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:05:44

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:05:52

Cllr James Butcher - 0:05:53

Councillor Buchanan, not question, maybe just say, well, thank you to you tickets are really really clear report and thank you.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:06:03

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:06:10

so item 5, update to Corporate Risk Register, page 13 just need to do

Mrs Sue Lewis - 0:06:13

sorry you just need to do or propose you in a second as our and receive the recommendations.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:06:21

can I have a proposer happy to propose, thank you, Councillor wing,

Cllr John Wing - 0:06:24

happy to second, thank you, Councillor Lockwood.

Cllr Adrian Lockwood - 0:06:26

and a boat.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:06:28

we all put.

ITEM 5, update to Corporate Risk Register pages 39 to 50

Adrian Tofts - 0:06:47

yes, thank you, Chair.

5 Update to Corporate Risk Register

this is an update to the Corporate Risk Register that was last considered by this Committee in September.

the risk register itself is in Appendix 1, with changes shown as red struck through or underlined and Appendix 2 is is a matrix which gives a relative risks of the different risks in the register, changes since September are highlighted and these are really to reflect updates to projects on the ground.

additional work that's happened on the

financial strategy or government funds where we've been in receipt of of grant funding and also the legal framework we've had you levelling up and Regeneration Act in October.

there are also changes to reflect changes to the Council structure, risk owner and risk descriptions, to try and clarify what the risks are describing.

and so next steps, we will continue to update and report to this committee, and the next scheduled update is in March next year, thank you.

thank you, does the committee have any questions?

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:08:15

Councillor Lockwood,

thank you Chair just to know.

Cllr Adrian Lockwood - 0:08:22

16 major risks for the Council blistered, I'm sure there are hundreds of others that sit behind that.

there are nine of them are extreme and six are high and one is moderate, so 15 out of 16 of our collective risks are high or extreme, so I've just my question is is that normal is that what councils generally carry, I'm sure officers and and our experts will say other councils are worse off but in short should we be worried.

Adrian Tofts - 0:09:11

thank you, yeah, I don't think we should be worried, it's it's pretty much, as was previously reported to this committee, I think what we're looking at here is really the major projects that the Council is working on and so it's kind of reflects that and also the the economic climate really particular as regards development projects which is kind of affecting councils across the country ready, so I think the mechanisms are in place to monitor the risks or mitigate them where we can and and report regularly on them.

can you follow up from other questions?

Councillor Butcher

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:09:57

Cllr James Butcher - 0:10:00

thank you, Chair yeah, so it was just some points of detail going through the risk register, the first one, I'll see one about organisational capacity, which seems really significant, given the transformation that we're going through there's mention of the workforce development strategy to be put in place alongside an updated people strategy towards the soft 24 25 so I just wanted to know if that was on track where does that get reported?

for Members to have sight of that.

Adrian Tofts - 0:10:32

yes, those workforce plans and

HR strategies would be reported to personnel committee so that would,

occur regularly throughout the year and would be reported to members through through that mechanism

and and you know when that's going to personnel committee I don't, but I can check with the relevant chief officer and get back to you on them.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:11:00

then see to talks about governance, governance arrangements for hospital.

and I just wondered how we how we assure ourselves that those arrangements are working effectively, I know there's this kind of mention of them in the.

Audit update, but just wanted to get a sense of how do we assure ourselves that those arrangements are working as they should?

Adrian Tofts - 0:11:24

yes, it is my understanding that the the action plan will be continually monitored by East Kent Audit Partnership and will be reported back to this Committee and on on a regular basis, so that this Committee would have oversight of that one and be assured that it's working effectively.

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 0:11:47

sorry just just to add to that and to provide you with,

some further information, obviously the staff officers myself, Lydia and Susan as three-star officers, but it was so keep an eye and monitor the governance arrangements as well put the project, thank you.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:12:06

any other questions yeah I've done so, see 12 scrolling through to that one.

yeah, so that's cyber-threats and it talks about rigorous testing of security and, if necessary, monitoring remedial actions so it can help, does that get reported here what that testing has shown up or has it get reported?

Adrian Tofts - 0:12:33

my understanding from ICT colleagues is that that sort of continual process of remedial actions, sort of applying upgrades and patches to the system, but if there was anything major or out of order, it would be seriously.

issues would be reported to Corporate leadership Team and and and so on, through through the process to members, if, if it was an issue, for example, around misuse of computers by a member of staff, then that would be dealt with through an HR processes.

through that kind of process, yeah.

yes, I did just check up and sit and say you're saying any, if there

Cllr James Butcher - 0:13:22

were any, she said that would be reported to CL t, does that then come to us so that we can be assured that if we I suppose so if we're not hearing anything can we be assured then that everything is as it should be yeah I think those from what I understand from the officers

Adrian Tofts - 0:13:38

those are

sort of continual adjustments that are made as as.

the systems change and threats emerge, but that they would be reported if, if a major incident was to happen.

thank you.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:14:01

are we happy to receive and note the report?

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:14:02

can I have a proposal?

thank you, Councillor Berkshire, and a seconder.

and that's great, thank you.

Cllr John Wing - 0:14:14

all agreed.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:14:16

all agreed moving on to Item number 6, quarterly internal audit update PR, update report from the Head of East Kent Audit Partnership, and that's on pages 1 to 72.

6 Quarterly Internal Audit Update Report from the Head of East Kent Audit Partnership

so and it's gonna be Lydia.

OK.

Microphone D - 0:14:41

yes, thank you good evening, the report before you on page 51, is the regular update on internal audit work that's been completed since the last Committee, if I can direct you to page 55, this shows the summary of reports that have been completed in the period being tenancy and estate management, regulation of investigatory powers act and independent living.

no independent living having a split assurance of limited, he does have a management response on page 59, which gives you a little bit more information for for members on page 60. This shows the follow ups that have been completed in the period there being six this time and the main ones of note being car parking, income contract management and housing planned maintenance contracts which have all increased from either partial limited or no assurance. Therefore those systems are moving in the right direction.

on page 67, it shows the plan.

at the half year stage, the percentage completed was just under 42%, I'm bringing the target up to date to the end of November, the target being just under 67% and focused and is running at just under 58, so just slightly behind, but that's something that can be looked at for the next the next quarter, those are the main areas of the report and be pleased to take any questions you may have, thank you.

thank you Chris any questions from the Committee,

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:16:21

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:16:25

Cllr James Butcher - 0:16:27

Councillor Butcher, thanks to me, I just wanted to ask about the scope for improvement actions page 56 57 58 and how we how we track those actions.

so on page 56.

that's about the tenancy and estate management, I suppose it's just a general question where you were reporting to a scope for improvement

Microphone C - 0:16:56

and we had we check will settlement, thank you Chair, yes, thank you.

at the completion of each review, the detailed audit report contains an action plan, and so obviously in the summary that you've received here this evening on the table, that at the beginning of the report tells you how many recommendations we've raised in that critical, high medium and low categories and largely the bullets that we put in the Exec Summary indicate where the recommendations will be the detail of course sits in our system.

and three or six months later, after having agreed that action plan with management, and that will be an action, but they're intended to take, and usually the responsible officer and the due date, we will go back and perform the follow up which leads to the progress report. So for that time effectively you are tolerating the risks for the lower levels of assurance, as you can see by the example in independent living. We will always have a management response because there can be a bit of a lag by the time we've completed our fieldwork, signed off the draft report and final report, and it's becoming forward to committee, and then there'll be another lag before we undertake the progress report and bring the results of that to you meeting. Obviously, I need four times a year, so where where it's important to do so will provide that management response so that you can have an update. Quite often, it will just say we're working on the action plan or we're making good progress

so yes, in terms of then, we will go and test. The critical and high actions on the action plan generally. Take the manager's sign off on the medium and low ones, but, as with everything, it depends defensible his having considered that and evidence independently, we then report back at the progress report, the recommendation tracking sort of process largely sits with us. That said, there is now the new governance and board that's been formed we yet to attend, but part of that will that information will also be there clearly, as is also demonstrated in tonight's agenda, rather helpfully

where we have completed our progress report, and there are either high or critical recommendations are outstanding at the time and follow up with condensate, where we thought it was important when we did the audit three or six months later, we still think it's important and action hasn't sufficiently progressed. That's the point where we're escalating it to the 1 5 1 Officer and to the Committee's attention is then in the Committee's gift, if they were minded to do so, to say Well, we're satisfied that the management's comments are leading in the right direction or we'd like a further report at some point in the future, so hopefully you will see the process that you were having the independent assurance it's completed or not over to you

so hopefully they don't go out of view and is also the reason that we keep the second appendix in the in our report, which highlights those which have the lower levels of assurance that are yet to be followed up. So we're giving the committee a reminder, we haven't forgotten there on there in our plan, but clearly it's a fine balance between looking at the due dates in the action plan, so we don't go in too soon because clearly when we when we agree those dates with management, we want them to be robustly challenging but also allow them time to do it. There were many conflicting priorities on their time and some things do take long time if it's about writing a policy and having it approved, for example, so there is a balance between going in too soon and not not having allowed enough time or having enough transit transactions to test once the new controls are in, to be able to say they're embedded and are working effectively, which is the assurance that the committee is looking to receive. So hopefully it gives you a bit of a mix because since it really does depend what the actions are, but we won't let them go out of view and there will be reported. Thank you

Cllr James Butcher - 0:20:43

thank you, thank you could ask just about some specific ones, so there's mention of the peeks.

convener, when those are gonna be complete, and I think that's on page.

Jake or something, isn't it?

thank you Chair, page 59, yes, in the management response the manager has confirmed.

that yeah 100%, by the end of January.

obviously we are yet to undertake the follow up to confirm that that is the case, but we will be reporting, hopefully that follow-up will come forward to the March meeting Chair, thank you.

Microphone C - 0:21:19

Cllr James Butcher - 0:21:28

there was an update in publication on the website information sheet due by 30th November, do we know if that's done that?

thank you, so that was outstanding at the time of follow up and of course the cut off for the preparing the papers when we weren't have

Microphone C - 0:21:47

tested since then we can obviously try and have an update in the next committee papers if you would want the confirmation that it has been concluded.

Cllr James Butcher - 0:21:57

thank you, and then page 65 misses the contract register.

with a concerns that, despite training, there were still gaps in that.

so could we have an update on that?

Microphone C - 0:22:10

thank you, so this one is an example where it is being escalated to the committee, so I think management I don't know if you would like to respond how you would like us, whether you want us to undertake more testing or whether you wanted to review the effectiveness of that control in a different way.

we can obviously talk about that, thank you.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:22:33

any other questions I'm happy, I'm sorry, sorry, the corporate

Lydia Morrison - 0:22:35

governance board are reviewing the recommendations and working with the chief officers to put in place a procedure that will capture this, and we will be feeding that back to our internal auditors in time for your next review.

we have undertaken a considerable amount of training, and it's mostly been in-depth reviews that we've been undertaking not just in housing but across the board of the authority that has highlighted some new gaps, so we we have identified them, we have shared them with our internal auditors as well, but I'm confident that the corporate governance board will ensure that the new policy and training will,

plug those gaps and to do so, will we hear back about that again at our next meeting, and we will be asking our internal auditors to review that to satisfy that recommendation is fully implemented.

thank you

Mr Andy Vanburen - 0:23:32

yeah, it was just a smaller observation on the internal audit performance stats because the the paragraph 7.1 on page 61, which references the

percentage achieved against the plan, it is just a repeat of paragraph 3.3 on page 53 of the letter that was intended and October, but also the

I I feel the way it reads as an achievement percentage of 41% sounds really low, but actually, of course, the 350 days is an annual target, isn't it, so I would it be fairer to report it as the 145 days out of the 175 being 83%?

year to date, sort of thing.

thank you Chair.

Microphone C - 0:24:22

we could report it that way, we've always done it this way, I think I think we've considered this before, and I did once mention in the presentation that we have received a.

resignation within the teams, but he's taken promotion elsewhere, so we will have a vacancy and I was working out exactly how that might hit our ability to complete the audit plan. So in natural facts you're absolutely right up to the end of November, as was my colleague has presented, the target would be 67% and we're sitting at at 58% to the end of November. I think yeah, when we agree the plan in March we were promising you 350 days and then it's we're measuring against that as the year rolls on so yeah, if you prefer it to be presented that way, that's that's it's the same thing to make wow of 100% isn't due until the 31st of March, thank you.

any other questions.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:25:18

dot 1 on page 56, to summon the invoicing tenancy and estate management section.

at the bottom of the bullet points for a scope for improvement, the second one, it says there's no service level agreement in place, and I'm just wondering, is there a timescale or plan to have one, and, if so, when?

Microphone C - 0:25:44

thank you Chair, so that is the kind of detail that would be in the action plan, the so all of these bullets have been agreed with management, the ones that were included in the executive, summary or kind of the sort of high level these are the things that my management will be actioning to improve that its system of internal controls,

as I think we've said, we hope to probably bring the progress report on that one to the next meeting, but if you'd like to know any more detail in the meantime, we can get back to you, of course, meanwhile, management have agreed these things we will be going back to test but they have been implemented thanks for clarifying,

well, the committee is perhaps the committee happy to receive and note

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:26:24

the report, and if so, can I have a proposer Councillor Lockwood, thank her for proposed.

Cllr Adrian Lockwood - 0:26:31

secondary place concept.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:26:45

so, moving on to Item number 7, Grant Thornton Audit Plan for the year 31st March 2023.

7 Grant Thornton Audit Plan for the Year Ended 31 March 2023

Microphone A - 0:26:54

superior over to you, thank you, thank you Chair, so I shall take the plan as read you will notice the title of the plan is indicative audit audit plan that's because currently the audit team is still finalising our planning and risk assessment procedures but we've done sufficient work to support the issuing of the audit plan, our director attention to page 80.

which summarises what we have in the plan, so I think, firstly, just to say, there are no real, significant changes from the plan that we issued for 21 22. The risks are very similar, so you'll see the significant risks that we have here around the management override of controls, valuation of the pension fund, net liability, valuation of land and buildings and level 3 financial assets and liabilities. Those are significant risks that we had in the prior year. Also, one change is, but I've downgraded the risk around fraud and expenditure, so that is now classified as on the risk, because I don't feel that it's a significant risk for the Council. The significant risks are detailed in pages 81 to 84 and the other risk around fraud and expenditure recognition is on page 85.

the materiality is slightly higher than it was in the prior year and that's based on the gross operating costs for 22 23 based on the draft financial statements.

one other change for 22 23 as there are a couple of new auditing standards, one is ISA 3 1 5, which is explained in a bit more detail on page 95, and the other is ISA 2 40, which is around my responsibilities relating to fraud in the audit of the financial statements.

I think we are doing our risk assessment work, offer the value for money side of things, also so as part of that work which will happen later or is happening now, sorry, we will be following up the significant weaknesses that we identified in the Auditor's annual report for 21 22, but we have not identified any additional risks of significant weakness in the work that we've carried out to date.

in terms of the accounts audit, the timetable is probably going to slip into March because we have not yet started the detailed testing on the on the draft financial statements, so under the Audit, logistics section and also on page.

sorry, I just let me find the page with the timeline.

page 94, rather than December 2 February, it will be December to March.

just to let you know that I have.

return to section 1 5 1 Officer and the Chief Exec to let them know about risk to the end of March deadline, so if you're aware of the issues in local government audit currently and the backlog of unaudited accounts,

there are proposals at the moment to bring in a backstop that could be brought in at the end of March and if that is the cut-off date, that does put the 22 23 audit at risk, because it's quite a tight timeframe to get the audit finished by.

when we as a firm last spoke with the Department and the FRC, the proposal was that the deadline the backstop date would be the end of March, but currently there's nothing has been formalised and, with the cabinet reshuffle, the new local government minister is looking at the proposal but what whatever is decided has to then go through parliament to be put through legislation, so the timetable for that is getting quite tight, so at the end of March time frame could slip.

but we don't know at the moment what it will be, I think, just to assure you that, as Grant Thornton, we are doing as much as we can to complete as much what it work as we can.

and we are working as closely as we can with the finance team on the audit and I'll stop there for any questions thank Sophia any questions from the committee.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:31:19

no questions.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:31:24

are we happy to receive and note the report and if so, can I have a proposer Councillor?

and a seconder.

I second that.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:31:36

this was not agreed.

Cllr Adrian Lockwood - 0:31:39

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:31:41

that's unanimous, thank you.

Good evening, Councillor Bumble.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:31:50

that's OK when it's just going just going on to item 8, so I'll give you a bit of time to get your papers out.

that's pages 1 0 1 2 1 0 6.

and its annual governance statement actions an update on 2023 24 actions.

thank you Chair so.

8 Update on Change of Governance Arrangements

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:32:16

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 0:32:17

him presenting the update on the change of governance arrangements, so this report provides you with a brief update on the progress of the work of the constitutional working group.

the recommendations are before you on page 1 0 1, I assume you've read the report, so I'll take you through the main bits, if I may, the working group has met on four occasions so far the dates that are set out in paragraph 2.1 paragraph 2.2 has a I think very colorful and helpful.

diagram, which summarises what the working group we'll be putting forward as suggestions for the new committee structure. As you will see, you can see the resources committee, the communities and environment committee, licensing, planning and committee, audit and governance, and also various sub-committees, as shown on the chart, some, quite a lot of progress has been made by the working group, and I I, as the monitoring officer, thank all the members of the working group who've worked in a very positive manner and have given very clear instructions to officers, and we are grateful for that. The main principles are set out in paragraph 2.3 of your pack. Again, I won't go through them

because I'm sure you've read them

there is an all Member briefing session on the 11th of December, which I would highly recommend all Members, please attended, is an online session, it will be delivered by our external legal advisor who's been assisting the Council to date, and the main principles as agreed or suggested by the working group will be explained and set out to all members the next working group meeting is on the 18th of December and on minutes and agenda items as discussed by the working group are available for all members to see if you wish to do so, thank you.

I thank Jammeh deep and apologies I read out the title of a number 9 instead of number 8.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:34:36

sorry to confuse everyone and any questions from the Committee Councillor wing.

how are just a quick question about overview and scrutiny, obviously I've eaten the paperwork, it won't exist anymore.

Cllr John Wing - 0:34:51

every full-Council will at least have one thing referred to overview and scrutiny, I presume that you get referred to wherever committee is applicable to that, is it correct that's correct Councillor reindeer certainly are?

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 0:35:06

I have always had is consumed overview and scrutiny as well. The

Cllr John Wing - 0:35:10

workload is already falling, maybe we get more and more, and it gets pushed back and things get pushed back up

I am sure that you got on the case and you have been allowed for other items to arrive as well as statutory like otter pollen and things that are going to be done every year anyway, so I'm sure you go in place in any one year on all valid points and Councillor wing and suddenly he's

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 0:35:32

on our very long to-do list and for matters to consider so we will definitely take that into account when we're mapping out the new system and,

which items go where, so thank you, Councillor Womble, thank you, is

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:35:47

there any idea yet as to how many more additional meetings will be,

Cllr David Wimble - 0:35:51

where the full Council will have to sit to deal with the workload?

at Councillor Womble, thank you for your question, honest answer, not

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 0:36:01

yet because we haven't.

sorted out the diaries and how many meetings we will need, so that that's the honest answer, but it is a piece of work that we will be doing very soon. However, what I would like to say is that having spoken to colleagues who have worked under the committee system, I haven't personally as monitoring officer but from talking to colleagues who have

the feedback that I have received is that they tend to be more meetings under the committee system now, how many more you will have, I cannot say, at this stage.

thank you.

I just quietly come back on a

Cllr David Wimble - 0:36:45

I did was up at Orpington and there was an awful lot more meetings, but it is in some ways better that everybody will get a chance to discuss things purely because I don't get sit on any other committees in this one, so I don't ever get chance to scrutinise so I guess it's a.

somewhat welcome any other questions or comments.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:37:06

Councillor Butcher, good touch to build on Councillor wings question

Cllr James Butcher - 0:37:11

about overview and scrutiny, we maybe just get a couple of examples, so we talked about procurement, there was a motion to refer the procurement proposal to Overview and Scrutiny, so would that go to the whatever it's called the resources committee.

yes, I think it would Councillor Butcher, it would go there and would they also make the decision about that?

depending on the nature of the decision, quite possibly, yes, so that I suppose there's a loss in that of attention between people reviewing something and people, making decisions about something.

quite possibly, but but there is yeah, I mean.

this is still very much work in progress, which is what I would like to assure Members about services, and this isn't all mapped out completely. It's very much work in process, there is a we are calling a recession process, so if you don't have the Overview and Scrutiny Committee there will be a precision process which members can evoke and rely on

should they be unhappy with a decision so that will be built into the new constitution,

what that process will look like. We have spoken about with the working group members, but it's not set in stone, but they there will be checks and balances. I would I would like to assure members of that and you will be made aware of them. So I'm sorry if it's not a complete answer. There is still very much working programme not expecting complete answer at this stage, but just wanting to raise those both of those kinds of questions about that. I suppose you have an example. Yesterday, at finance and performance subcommittee, we were reviewing the medium term financial strategy

before it goes to Cabinet, so there's in a sense, there's two looks at that. How would something like that work or is that to be worked out

that is something that needs to be looked into.

so yes, that's that's the best answer I can give at this stage, so we we, we need to do the mapping out of what we do currently, what we would do in the new world, and that is all information that we will be sharing with members and officers to carry on with it for years.

the there's a are, I think, a question I saw somewhere in the minutes about whether you could have the same chair for both of the committees, is that still an open question?

depends on what we put in the constitution.

because it is quite quite a significant yesterday issues and it is significantly, it would be very unusual to have the same chair for both of the bigger committees.

but again it comes down to the drafting, I think it would be

not good practice to have the same chair.

I could send there's a question about coordination between those committees, so at the moment in cabinet we've got well Tim and Jim so that the sort of finances, though with people with an eye on services all in the same group having the conversation that's going to be as I understand it, separated out I guess we don't know what the overlap will be, so are the thoughts about how we make sure those two committees are.

not in silos, and whether that's a chairs, group or aware so has any thought been given to that.

yeah, so each of the committees, so not just the main two committees, but all of the committees will have their specific new terms of reference so they remit within which they function.

the chairs and vice chairs of the main committees certainly, and the others will perform what is being suggested by the working group.

we will have will also perform the role of group spokesperson again, the role of group spokesperson is an idea at this stage and is supported by the working group, but that needs to be mapped out and determined, so that group spokesperson Chairman Vice Chairman, know what their role is, I think your question Councillor Butcher is,

how are the two I see, I think please correct me if I'm wrong, but how are the two chairmen or chair ladies of of the Committees going to interact Chair, how are they going to interact with each other?

again, that's a very good point, there should be cross working, there should be overlap and you are quite right, we need to avoid the silo system of working that isn't our aim, that isn't what we want to to do, but again, yes,

these are again issues that we need to look at to ensure that these, I guess it's just mentioned as soon as you you have to group the risk, is you get silo, we're getting here in conversations, maybe not as appraised as they should be the conversation, so we're just interested to hear they are absolutely India and then a quote question about,

so at the moment we we've got Executive portfolio holders with responsibility for a whole range of things that will, I think, about seven of those areas like parking transport, all of those things would now sit Brazilian the communities group.

not necessarily because the terms of reference have to be determined. They have been drafted as we Smith, but yes, they are there under the new system, we will not have portfolio holders, so I guess there's questions at the moment we got that very clear focus, so I was at a at a ward meeting that Labour colleagues had organised where I live, probably Blair came down there. Someone who's kind of accountable and well-informed can take decisions and answer questions, so I guess it's under the system who would be going to that meeting and with what kind of authority and what again I'm not expecting an answer now, but it's just at the moment we've got a system where

you've got a very clear person who's not just knowledge, we're like a spokesperson will be, but with some authority to do something about whatever's being raised, and I guess all of us, because we're on the receiving end of questions from residents or complaints about residents of got used to a way of getting in touch with it before portfolio holder, I guess what and how does that work under the new system and,

how do I suppose, how do we avoid the chairs and vice chairs having a really broad span of things that are supposed to be on top of?

again, a very good question, Councillor Butcher, and I mean under the committee system that you know, as I said before and you've quite rightly identified, you would not have the portfolio holder system and arrangement that you have currently at the moment and I appreciate it gives.

members and and actually members of the public, from certainty to to sometimes know which portfolio holder to e-mail and contact. Should you have any queries now that all goes under the committee system and what you can't have is a little bit of the executive system in the committee system, as you can imagine, because you get, otherwise, you'll just cherry picking the best bits and and that's not the members' wishes. You know, I think members were very clear and why they wanted to move to the committee system. I completely take on board your comment about you know not to overburden and overload the the Chair or Vice Chairman, the group spokesperson and in fact that is something that's been picked up by

the working group again, it hasn't been determined or mapped out yet, but it is on our list again of things that need to be thought through determined and guidance provided to to both members and officers, as well as just amendment when we vote on this back in May. I think it's very much along the lines of camp Councillor. Wimbledon point was about. how do we get everybody involved in decision making, I think the bit about I don't think we were considering it at the time is what's that, what are the implications of that shift away from executive members and that day to day responsibility because it sounds like there's going to be a knock-on effect on officers?

because at the moment you've got a filter, because you've got a portfolio holiday, you're not going to have that filter anymore.

yes, I think your observation is correct the the the the way that officers work.

will also change, it will just be a change for members, so it will simply change for officers.

and one more question.

and that's about transition plan, so I'm kind of curious how many more meetings, if you've got scheduled before May.

and when do we get to see a transition plan because it's a big shift and I'm thinking you know when the NHS make a big move, say to ICBM, they put in place shadow boards who are sort of starting to work before they're properly taking over the reins and so on, so I just wonder when we might see a transition plan.

getting from here to there, yes.

Councillor Burgess, I, I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but I believe in the last update report that I provide this committee, there was a timetable, a proposed timetable, so I'm very happy to circulate that again to all members we will be having a couple of more working group meetings.

after this, we've obviously got the training session on the 11th of December, we are already putting in place training sessions for members and also officers so that they become familiar with the new system.

of course, this has to be voted through by Members, so this will be when I say this, I mean the constitution, once it's drafted will be presented to members at the A and G Committee first and also for Council, so you will get to see it and I believe from memory, so I could be wrong, but as well as a I think you have another briefing session as well for Members, often the 11th of December, and if you feel that you need more from us, then please do contact me and I'm very happy to look into this because there's only one outcome could be yes, absolutely, we want to move to a committee system, but we're not satisfied that the plan has produced is quite the right one so that and on that's still an option for Members to

in theory, yes.

but it depends on the circumstances, and it depends on the explanation provided by members, although because of yeah I mean if you know, yeah I'm supposed to be about Brexit, no-one can vote for Brexit, but then there's the question, Are you ever what kind of is is that what people had in mind when they voted in favour of the committee system?

I won't go there, sorry, forget, I mentioned that approximately that

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:48:10

can I just make a comment, or maybe it's a request just to ensure that the content new constitution will have updated and inclusive language yeah, thank you, like Chair as the default yeah, thank you appreciated.

the Committee is asked to note the progress of the Constitution,

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:48:27

working group and member briefing session sorry.

Mrs Sue Lewis - 0:48:32

so he, just following on from what Councillor Butcher said, it may be

Cllr David Wimble - 0:48:37

a valid point at the moment if any councillor has an issue, they know which portfolio holders to go to, and it's very simple because we will have a list with the pictures of them and what they are responsible for my always what's been my biggest concern is I'll give an example last year when we had to travel with with Veolia.

the Cabinet Member in particular was having every councillor on the whole Council, phoning him up is repeating himself the same time instead of going to a Cabinet Member now this can begin to an officer which means that that officer isn't going to be able to do the work that they need to do because unless they are doing an old bulletins, e-mail to everybody after every single question I'm not sure you'll like your e-mails, but I get quite a few every day anyway that,

you'll be doing the same job over and over again, which has always been my fear of going this way, so I think it's a very valid point that Councillor Butcher made and I hope it doesn't prove to be that way.

thank you any other comments or follow ups.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:49:44

so is the committee happy to note the progress of the Constitution working group and the member briefing session, the online member

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:49:49

briefing session on the 11th December?

and, like we're just gonna ask that thank you, Councillor Butcher, seconder Councillor wing, are we as a Committee agreed and that's the unanimous thank you.

so moving to the last agenda item number 9,

which is annual governance statement actions update on 23 24 actions pages 1 0 7 2 1 16.

9 Annual Governance Statement Actions - update on 2023/24 actions

thank you, Chair members, I would like to.

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 0:50:23

presents an update on the 2023 24 actions relating to the annual governance statement, the recommendations are before you on page 1 0 7.

the annual governance statement for 22 23 identified some actions which were necessary to improve the overall effectiveness of our governance arrangements.

the updates are shown in Appendix 1, which starts on page 111 of your report.

please note that you will be that this committee will be presented with a follow up report in July 2024, so the updates to the action plan are set out in Appendix 1.

I'm very happy to answer any questions that Members may have, thank you, thank you on Monday for any questions from the Committee or comments.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:51:22

Councillor Burt, Chapman because I think it's kind of a questionnaire

Cllr James Butcher - 0:51:30

from the last thing, but it was whether any of the proposed changes impact on our audit and governance committee is being retained under the current proposals, is there any difference envisaged in the terms of reference or ways of working voting governments under the new arrangements?

thank you, Councillor Butcher.

Mrs Amandeep Khroud - 0:51:49

again, where redrafting all the terms of reference, but in all likelihood the terms of reference for the audit and governance committee will look very similar, if not identical, to what we've got at the moment.

many other questions no.

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:52:04

is the committee happy to receive and note the report, and, if so, can ever propose your place, happy to propose like Councillor Lockwood and

Cllr Adrian Lockwood - 0:52:13

Cllr Liz McShane - 0:52:15

Councillor Rumble, you happy to second, thank you, that's great can remember, is that agreed?

this is unanimous, thank you very much, and that's the last agenda item and the last A and G Committee meeting of 2023, so thank you everyone.

officers and people and auditors from East Kent Partnership and Grant Thornton.

Audit and Governance Committee - Wednesday 6 December 2023, 6:00pm - Feedback Tab - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting