Planning and Licensing Committee

Planning and Licensing Committee
Tuesday, 16th January 2024 at 7:00pm

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Cllr Jackie Meade
Slide 1
Cllr Jackie Meade

2 Declarations of Interest

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Declarations of Interest

3 Minutes

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Minutes , 12/12/2023 Planning and Licensing Committee

4 Minutes of the Licensing Sub-Committee

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Final Minutes

5 23/1096/FH - Land Adjoining Karibu, Coombe Wood Lane, Hawkinge, ct18 7BZ

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Mr Robert Allan
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Cllr Jackie Meade
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6 23/1554/FH - 29 Lancaster Drive, Hawkinge, Folkestone, CT18 7SW

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Mr Robert Allan
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Cllr Clive Goddard
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Cllr Mike Blakemore
Cllr Belinda Walker
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Mr Robert Allan
Cllr Jackie Meade
Cllr Rebecca Shoob
Mr Robert Allan
Cllr Jackie Meade
Cllr Jackie Meade
Mr Robert Allan
Cllr Jackie Meade
Cllr Nicola Keen
Microphone A
Cllr Jackie Meade
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Mrs Sue Lewis
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7 23/1526/FH - 31 Lancaster Drive, Hawkinge, Folkestone, CT18 7SW

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Mr Robert Allan
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Cllr Polly Blakemore
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Mrs Sue Lewis
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8 Appeals Monitoring Report January 2020 to December 2023

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Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:00:02

the Planning and Licensing Committee, this meeting will be webcast live to the internet. For those who do not wish to be recorded or films, you will need to leave the Chamber for members officers and others speaking at the meeting. It is important that the microphones are used, so viewers on the webcast and others in the room. I hear you with anyone with a mobile phone, please switch it to silent mode as they can be distracting

I would like to remind Members that, although we all have strong opinions on matters under consideration, it is important to treat members officers and any public speakers with respect.

some members, as Chair of this Committee, I'd like to make a statement for the benefit of all Councillors, presence at this meeting and for members of the public, the applications before you tonight, and indeed any applications you consider in the future must be considered on planning merits only it is essential that Members adhere to this principle.

ensure that their decisions tonight are based on the papers before you and any information provided to you during this meeting, this is not the forum to discuss any ancillary issues relating to the planning applications before you, so we now move on, do we have any apologies for absence?

1 Apologies for Absence

apology.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:01:28

thank you, and do we have any declarations of interest this evening, I'm looking around and they don't seem to be any.

2 Declarations of Interest

3 Minutes

attached to your notes, were the minutes of the last Licensing, Sub-Committee and also the last minutes of this meeting.

May I take them as a record and sign please

agreed, thank you, I'll do that after.

4 Minutes of the Licensing Sub-Committee

5 23/1096/FH - Land Adjoining Karibu, Coombe Wood Lane, Hawkinge, ct18 7BZ

so we move on to our first application for this evening, which is 23 dash 1 0 9 6 dash F H, which is the land adjoining Carabine Coombe Wood Lane in Hawkinge, do we have any updates at all, please?

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:02:33

Mr Robert Allan - 0:02:39

every day, from a voice.

one small amendment, members projects, members at paragraph 2.1 on page 15, I've mentioned the eastern boundary with Long Acre, but he is, in fact the western boundary with long occur.

thank you Chair.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:03:06

thank you very much and we have no speakers on this this evening, so I will sort it out to the Chamber with any Councillor like to ask a question or raise an issue so Councillor Thomas.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:03:22

yeah, thank you, Chair, could I just ask that this application meets

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:03:28

policy HB 10, the development of residential gardens.

it meets the policy requirement is correct.

yeah. Thank you, sir. Yes, we consider it out for similar officers, consider it. It does sorry, it's been few weeks of without speaking to

Mr Robert Allan - 0:03:50

the general populace. Yes, we do consider it meets that and if I may,

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:03:55

so, 14 residents contacted no objections. One letter of support I'd like to propose chair that we accept the officer's recommendations for approval. Thank you. Thank you, I'm sorry, Councillor Kinga in a second. First of all, would any other Councillor like to ask any

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:04:12

questions or raise anything first? Councillor HinesBuy

I was just going to say I think it's made good use of a plot of land that's available, and I think it's a sensible decision.

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:04:24

anybody else, no, in that case we have one proposal in front of us,

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:04:32

and that is to accept the officers recommendation, all those in favour, please raise your hand.

and actually non-Muslim, therefore it's carried, thank you very much.

6 23/1554/FH - 29 Lancaster Drive, Hawkinge, Folkestone, CT18 7SW

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:04:56

so will now move on to the next one, which is 23 dash 1 5 5 4 dash f h.

which is 29 Lancaster Drive Hawkinge, do we have any updates, please?

Mr Robert Allan - 0:05:15

thank you Chair, yes, subsequent to the preparation of the report, and we didn't make the supplementary sheets received an additional letter of objection, stating that the buffer strips are required to be maintained for 10 years, by condition that the banks to drive west limited companies liable for the maintenance of these areas.

and stating that they felt that the Council has failed to take enforcement action.

I think officers would say that the original planning permission did separate the llanthony residential garden areas, but it doesn't in itself preclude any other applications coming forward for the change of use or any other development on it

as is the case with any other land, and the key consideration is the acceptable acceptability of the proposal, which is the subject of the application.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:06:08

thank you, and again we have no speakers on this this evening, so I fly out to the Chamber, would anyone like to ask a question or raise anything, Councillor Goddard, thank you, Chairman, I'll just shed some more following colleagues Malloy it's slot last week and we have these

Cllr Clive Goddard - 0:06:21

first question empty properties are in Lancaster Drive

I'm afraid, without counting, I am not entirely sure, I think, use

Mr Robert Allan - 0:06:33

possibly around 30, but I I wouldn't like to be held to that.

why was I'm just trying to planning out future agendas?

Cllr Clive Goddard - 0:06:42

say or just just to say, if, if we're liable to, because we are too last time we got to this month.

how many next month?

sorry, it's just just just two ceremonies in Lancaster Drive, really, but obviously yeah hit our desks last months and again it's ticked all the boxes to move the recommendation.

do we have a seconder?

Councillor

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:07:08

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:07:12

thank you having to second and again I think, in my view, it will be maintained by those residential properties, probably better than it has been in the past, and I think it's a sensible thing are going to do and I'm happy to go along with the proposal.

recommendation should I say thank you, Councillor Blake, more than Councillor Walker Place.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:07:31

actually I think I have some sympathy with the neighbours, these

Cllr Mike Blakemore - 0:07:38

buffer strips were created to provide a buffer between the homes and the rural area, then being subsumed into a garden is not the same thing, and the question of how well the people maintain those gardens is neither here nor there suddenly becoming part of a garden something that is becoming part of a garden, it's no longer that buffer strip between the rural area and the development so I have a lot of sympathy with those that have objected.

it's really a product of the fact that it wasn't enforced in the first place that we're here tonight, discussing this again as we did at a previous meeting in another case.

thank you, Councillor Walker.

I really wanted to say what Councillor Blake was just said.

Cllr Belinda Walker - 0:08:18

I am not sure that the answer of the the buffers, having been retained for 10 years, being owned by the same company, have been fully addressed. I put a lot of sympathy with the neighbours, the fact it's been done a couple of times, I think that was a mistake last time and as Councillor Hollingsworth said that Rob Councillor Goddard said, this will come back again next time, the time of was more and more neighbours tried to encroach on onto that. I think it's a great shame that this has gone through previously

Councillor, probably by Akmal.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:08:53

the original planning permission.

Cllr Polly Blakemore - 0:08:57

Mr Robert Allan - 0:09:13

that's, and that's not correct now I mean it was separation, was on the map at least.

it showed what the residential garden area was, which is covered by the original planning application, obviously for the W which covered the whole site but that was designated as garden area and this strip was set aside for the the the landscaping slash buffer area and as set out at the beginning you can't we we we we can't say why it can never be a thing because you can always submit a planning application to seek approval for that if that helps.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:09:54

Cllr Rebecca Shoob - 0:09:55

Councillor Sheard, thank you there, I note the proposed condition that there's not to be any building on the the land and does that include that cover hard odd, covering hardstanding at all. tattooing,

tarmac King, et cetera.

if Members are minded to to have.

Mr Robert Allan - 0:10:14

you know, as seek a condition that they will impose a condition, that there would be no no further hardstanding, I don't think that would be unreasonable if, if the reasons for that work could be clarified.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:10:32

thank you, Councillor, Sheard I totally agree, my understanding was that part of the conditions of them subsuming these areas into their garden is that there would be no erection of things along the lines of garden sheds, home offices or indeed hardstandings, and can the Officer please confirm that because I thought that was part of the conditions.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:11:27

whilst the officers are looking at outside that we don't have just complete silence, I just wanted to let you know that I've been speaking to Llewellin and the officers and we're actually putting in some extra information for you.

is the Committee and you'll see tonight that we're actually looking at the appeals that have gone through recently, just so that you can understand when you make a decision, what the next steps are, anyway, sorry over to you.

thank you Chair, yes, just to clarify there.

Mr Robert Allan - 0:11:57

on the condition that is imposed, PA f does actually remove rights from laying hardstanding, so that is actually covered by the condition is on their apologies that I fail to recall that.

Councillor King.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:12:13

Cllr Nicola Keen - 0:12:15

can I ask, how are we going to police that, though we're going to have some are walking up and down that area because they told him?

a neighbour of mine that he couldn't any did so can I just I just want to know how we are going to place that condition because I'm gonna vote against it if we can't please here.

Microphone A - 0:12:36

thank you, Chairman J A cheque, good evening members, women, in terms of policing, planning conditions, no, no local authority in the country has the resources to proactively police all planning conditions are imposed, and I think that's reflected in the the Planning Acts in in terms of time periods for enforcement and I understand that they have either recently or will shortly if that extended such that development will not become lawful until a period of 10 years has passed, so what we would expect we would expect people to comply with their planning conditions is as reasonable, sensible members of society where they don't we would expect

we would expect local residents if as harm arising from any development to

make formal complaints to the council's enforcement team, and then we would take it forward from there.

would anyone else like to make a statement ask a question?

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:13:40

no, so we have one proposal on the table at the moment, and that is to accept the officers recommendation, all those in favour, please raise your hand.

those against.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:13:59

any abstentions.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:14:05

no.

always.

Mrs Sue Lewis - 0:14:10

for six against five, thank you, so that is carried, thank you

7 23/1526/FH - 31 Lancaster Drive, Hawkinge, Folkestone, CT18 7SW

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:14:15

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:14:23

and we move on to the next one, which is literally next door.

which is 23 dash 1 5 2 6 dash F H 31, Lancaster Drive Hawkinge, again we have no speakers on this, so out of the Chamber would anyone like to say anything Councillor Helsby.

I move the recommendation chairman, do you have a say 0?

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:14:47

Surrey Council has been asked if there were any updates, I apologise,

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:14:53

Mr Robert Allan - 0:14:55

but we just didn't leap in there, it is there's the same letter was submitted on this application as was submitted on the previous one as well, which covered the fact that they felt that the buffer strips would require to be maintained thanks to Drive West Ltd is liable for maintenance in these areas, and that the Council has failed to take enforcement action previously.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:15:16

thank you, and Councillor Hornsby has proposed, do we have a seconder, Councillor Goddard, would anyone else like to raise any issues on this?

Councillor Thomas

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:15:27

yeah, thank you Chair, just picking up on Councillor Goddard's points about how do we deal with these things in the future as we're likely to get a few more from here?

and of course, even in in in my road in New Romney, we have exactly the same thing, and so again I just wonder whether there I know we have to deal with applications on their merits when they are presented to this committee and I realise that, but I just wonder whether there's anything that needs to be done in terms of making the wider population aware of of of what those decisions are and whether we can come up or I'll have to come up with something to offset that some time in the future, that's all just say just picking up on the point that Councillor Goddard made the salt. Thank you

thank you, my understanding is that some of these gardens, or the

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:16:12

backing buffer zone actually holds a drainage area, so they would actually be in a very different situation than the gardens that do not have the drainage area, I'm just wondering that for those gardens that don't have the buffer zone that encroaches on the drainage area should we go to delegation from officers because,

we seem to be allowing and agreeing with these as opposed to just bringing it to committee, because we could have, as you say, up to 15 20 of these coming through.

well, I think that's a decision separate from this application, we can

Microphone A - 0:16:54

certainly explore it between this meeting in the next one if, if the committees minded to to agree to something along those lines, but I I'd be.

concerned in terms of

considering the merits of each site, each site is different and of course we need a degree of consistency in decision making, but I I I don't think it would necessarily be appropriate to give a blanket delegation for every application in this in the street, but we can we can certainly explore if if members are or are willing to consider it.

thank you, as only asking to time to speed things up.

Councillor Pauline McNeill,

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:17:35

Cllr Polly Blakemore - 0:17:42

unfortunately, we can't answer that question because we don't know

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:18:08

what neighbours will do, and this evening we're talking about this particular application, so we can't think of what might happen.

we have to look at the application as it is in front of us. Would anyone ask Councillor Hawley's me,

I was just going to say on on the issue of delegation, we also have to

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:18:31

remember that if the Town Council Hawkinge Town Council in this case, makes comments or is against the application and the recommendation from officers here is for approval, then it should automatically come to this committee, so I think it would be difficult to delegate.

thank you, Councillor Holmes, for you're absolutely correct, would anyone else like to say anything else at this point?

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:18:53

we have.

1, A decision going forward, and that is to accept the officer's recommendation, all those in favour, please raise your hand.

those against.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:19:14

any abstentions.

no abstentions.

that's for six against five.

Mrs Sue Lewis - 0:19:25

so that has passed, thank you very much now, that's all the

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:19:28

applications were going through this evening, so that was quite a quick meeting, however we're very lucky that.

8 Appeals Monitoring Report January 2020 to December 2023

one of our councillors has put together a report regarding the appeals,

have gone on over the last couple of years that have come through from decisions that the committee have made, but someone like to talk to say these.

Microphone A - 0:19:57

well, thank you Chair, I mean the report released for for information for Members there a number of appendices attached, and I apologise OK, it got jumbled up not terribly clearly labelled, but on I'm happy to answer any any questions. I think I've tried in choosing these notable decisions to take him abroad, cross section of the appeals that we've received in the past three years, the type of appeal, the type of development and the type of decision that we've received. So there are a couple of enforcement appeals. There's a public inquiry relating to an enforcement notice, as if a Gypsy and Traveller appeal, where

unusually we thought for a local planning authority, we we won the appeal and the the enforcement notice if the site was upheld, there is a listed building appeal which relates to the installation of new PVC windows into a Grade II listed building, which was dismissed.

and of course, there's the Tesco car park pill, which was a decision made contrary to officer recommendation where the Planning Inspector awarded costs.

against the Council, like I said, I am happy to take any questions Members might have, and just for information we will now be moving forward with monthly appeal reports to members where where we get decisions in there's some fallow months where we don't get any, but the the next committee meeting will have at least two fairly notable appeal decisions to report to members which coming very recently thank you.

thank you very much, Councillor Goddard yeah, not a question as such,

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:21:44

Cllr Clive Goddard - 0:21:48

but just a well done here sexually, and it's good to say obviously Mr Baillie's team pull it together rather than the Councillor, because you did say a Councillor.

all eyes.

yeah always so we're looking around and but when you ask for up to do our yesterday, if the lobby team rather than one off one of us pulling together, so not just a well done, it is if it's useful, it's good a couple of hours on the way off as well especially what touched on the Gypsy Traveller site, no, that's a good one so yeah Tesco's car park shine.

this we could spend another evening talking about that one, but we weren't necessarily hip redressing the past, look forward, but yeah well done.

Councillor Walker, then Councillor Thomas

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:22:37

Cllr Belinda Walker - 0:22:38

we just wanted to echo that sound, especially as some are new beyond the Planning Committee, it's been extremely useful to look through this and to see what happens behind the scenes as the worst, so thanks, very much putting that together.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:22:51

thank you Chair, if I could ask just on on 87 Coast Drive, that's been kicking round because we know for for a little while.

under preliminary matters, it says that the original enforcement required the removal of the property by February 2021.

is there going to be a timescale attached to that, which requires the removal of their property within a revised timescale, thank you.

I think in terms of that kind of granular detail on on particular

Microphone A - 0:23:20

sites, I'm happy to have a discussion out outside of a meeting, particularly where it involves a live enforcement case rather than rather than doing a public forum where you know the the current occupiers on hearing the neighbours who say I think it would be worthwhile having a chat once the meetings concluded.

Councillor Hopkins P,

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:23:44

yeah yeah, thank you Chairman well, of course I suppose it was COVID

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:23:49

that really stopped us having these reports because we used to have these regularly one of the things I feel perhaps is missing on here, but maybe if we're doing it monthly it doesn't matter is actually saying the number of appeals received within that period is the period of time whatever that might be, how many were against officers how many were taken against officers' recommendations?

in other words, how many times the Committee went to go against officers' recommendations, and what was the result of that have to say, like Councillor Goddard, we did we did explain about the McDonald's we want, we voted it certainly voted in favour. So we were not part of the other group that costs the Council money because we knew that that would go to appeal and probably it would. It would go through so but yeah great report and it's good to be up to date with what's happening, and I think you know if we go forward and have it on a monthly basis, be great. Thank you,

Councillor Thomas

thank you Chair, just supporting what Councillor Hollingbery said

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:24:58

really, I think it's important for us as a committee to be a learning organisation as well as it is so for us to understand what has been approved and why and those things that haven't, and why I think that's really that really help us in decision making going forward as well, where we can have the discussions outside of here as as we've already said, but I think that's actually vital for us to be to to be a learning organisation thank you very much.

so I think.

Cllr Jackie Meade - 0:25:29

another thing that is really useful is to say that we're not actually stepping out of the boundaries of what other planning committees around the country are doing, so we know that we are going down the same path.

and hopefully in the same direction I would again I'm so sorry it definitely wasn't me who put this report together,

I definitely wasn't, and I do want to thank Rob and his team for doing this, and they will do it on a monthly basis, was and we will have some extra information coming through and also updating us on the various changes in planning law that will be coming our way.

probably across this year, because we need to be very, very aware of that again when we're making our decisions because any decisions we make, especially if we go against officers' recommendations, we need to make sure that we're on good, lawful standing with it, otherwise we will lose any appeal, but would anyone else like to say anything else?

no, if that's the case, I'd like to say thank you very much for coming.

will note the report, can I have a proposal, please, Councillor Kane, Councillor Cooper?

and all those in thanks for the report.

which is unanimous, thank you for coming out in the cold, please be careful when you go home, the roads are icy and everyone at home, please stay safe and warm, thank you very much.

Planning and Licensing Committee - Tuesday 16 January 2024, 7:00pm - Feedback Tab - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting