Public Consultation event

Public Consultation event
Monday, 5th February 2024 at 6:00pm

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Microphone Twelve - 0:00:00

Microphone Thirteen - 0:00:02

k good evening, everyone Greening, I wonder if we could start that will be, that would be great good evening and welcome to a consultation meeting.

pending the introduction of a

the Committee system, this meeting will be webcast live to the internet, for those who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you will need to leave the Chamber for those asking questions.

the cameras have been set, so you won't appear

but obviously your voice will be heard for members officers and others speaking at the meeting, it is important that the microphones are used, so viewers on the webcast, and others in the room may hear you would anyone with a mobile phone, please switch it to silent as they can be distracting, so I I just like to welcome you all I hope you've all come well armed with loads of questions we've got an extremely experienced and expert person to talk to us, so let's give him some testing questions.

after his Danny's presentation, so I'll hand over to you add Mr David Kitson hand over to you, David Bailey, Councillor Moulton, the introduction and look forward to questions, of course so yeah welcome everybody to this session the the but I should introduce myself first it might be helpful for you, my name is David Kitson and I'm a partner with the from law firm Bevan, Britton and I specialise in local authority governance then head up the team within Bevan Britain that delivers that service to two clients.

I'm hoping you can all see the slides.

it should be one saying welcome home the screen, so I will proceed on that basis.

so this session is, as you've heard, a presentation to to give you an overview, if you like, of the the the change in the governance system of the Council from an Executive to a committee system, so it's the intention is to to give you,

a base understanding of of what that system is going to be and how things will move forward to get to that point.

so this is an overview of the the of this evening's slides, so first of all I'm going to look at what.

what the system of governance is.

can be quite a difficult question.

but I hopefully will be able to explain it to you in a way which doesn't come across as being complicated, then we'll move on to to look at what system the Council presently has in place, what system of governance.

it has in place following that will look at what a committee system is, which is the system of governance to which the Council is going to move, will look at what's happened so far, and then we'll look at the proposed structure of the committees as agreed by the

the the Constitution working group presently and then will look at the headline principles which will underpin and the new governance system, the committee system.

then we'll look at how that might how the change might affect you as a member of the public or an interested.

party or or other relevant stakeholder, and then finally assuming that this time left I will field questions.

and to which I will hopefully be able to provide you with some some answers, if not, then I can always take things away and come back.

so what is a system of governance well?

it's many things, really it's as I've set out here in the bullet points, so first of all is the system of of arrangements that enable effective decision-making.

so you have things such as rules and procedures, so the Council has what's known as a constitution, which is the use a manual, if you like, for the Council and within there are rules that must be followed by the Council when it,

operates in making decisions, so you'll have procedure rules for for for meetings and say how things have to be progressed through those meetings, and there'll be other sets of rules such as financial procedure rules, contract procedure rules, all about how the Council makes decisions and what parameters within what parameters the Council operates as well and what it can and can't do in certain respects.

governance is also about ensuring that you've got effective risk management.

in place so understanding you know what is actually happening, what the risks are potential risks are of certain courses of action, but also providing a system of of assurance around, well, you know what's the mitigation for those risks et cetera effective leadership is a very important element of ensuring good governance and as our standards of conduct and that's not just conductive,

have elected members who are required to comply with the Members' Code of Conduct under the Localism Act.

and also what are known as the Nolan principles on which the current are based, but also standards of conduct for officers as well, and they have an officer code of conduct that that sets out how they are expected to behave, to ensure that matters are dealt with appropriately and the system works effectively, so another important element of of good governance is having an effective or positive culture.

that enables people to properly be involved in decision making and to understand it and be supportive of it and allow each of the limbs of the council.

say that would include the decision-making limbs those limbs of the Council, where review and risk management takes place, all of that to effectively come together.

accountability is very important, of course, so accountability in terms of being accountable for effective decision-making, being accountable for the decisions that are made, the the the the use of public funds, the delivery of functions.

and

transparency, of course, which enables accountability, but also enables a third parties and members of the public to to get involved and understand what's going on and to act in essence as a check and balance as well, so collectively, that is a system of governance, hopefully that's not too complex but as I say in essence it's a set of arrangements that ensure effective decision-making and accountability and transparency in in what the Council is doing takes a really really important thing.

so what what does the Council have now, so when I'm talking about governance in terms of?

arrangements that the Council has now, I'm talking about.

more specifically, the way that decisions are made and the decision making is structured, so presently the Council has what's known as an executive form of governance and, of course, as well as we all know why we're here, there's going to be a change to a different form of governance which is the committee system.

so, in terms of an executive form of governance, what that consists of is there is a split between.

functions of the Council and functions means any powers or duties of the Council,

so, as I say, there's this split between executive functions and non-executive functions, there are most council functions are in fact Executive, and when I say Executive, I'm referring to.

you have a leader and you have a cabinet of up to nine Executive members plus the leader.

and they hold often very often, as is the case with the Council, certain portfolios, so they have responsibility for certain.

steams or or certain areas so, for example, housing or environment, or that sort of thing now in an Executive form of governance.

the Lee all executive power vests in the Leader of the Council, so the leader of the council is able to, as an individual Member, take decisions.

as long as it complies with all of the governance framework, that's in place, I refer to the Constitution earlier in the procedure rules, and what have you so the Leader can delegate those hours if you like, functions to Ellie member that he or she has appointed to the Cabinet.

to the Cabinet as a whole or to.

the Committee of the Cabinet or to officers of the Council, but the key thing here with executive governance is that individual Executive members can take decisions.

and the Executive does not have to be politically balanced, so in a traditional scenario you would have, for example, one particular party may have a majority on the council.

leader is elected, and they often will select a Cabinet which is made up of all of Members from their particular political party so.

it means that in the majority of decision-making or exercise of functions for the Council, it will be normally just one political group who will be making those decisions or leading on those decisions.

so I'll mentioned non-executive powers, so they are, in essence, any or functions or powers that are expressly stated not to be executive functions, so there are provisions in legislation which refer to certain functions, one of which is,

determining or appointing staff and determining terms of conditions. That's a non-executive function, so it can't be something that the Executive, I, the Leader and the Cabinet are able to take decisions about another one, which is a very important one, of course, is setting off of the Council's annual budget, and that's something that is a non-executive function. However, the Executive have a role in developing the budget and proposing a budget to the full Council, but the ultimate decision on the budget is with full Council. It's also illegally

well, they can't be delegated on the Council, it's the Full Council meeting of all the council is that they have to take that decision, so it's reserved to the is, that is the word I was always looking for there, so we have that structure here presently.

then we have regulatory committees.

so that would be

licensing planning.

so regulatory functions regulating the

licensing of premises or regulating the granting of planning, permissions, etc.

they are non-executive committees, but of course Executive Members can be on those committees, as can any other Member, but they would be.

politically balanced in terms of they are required legally to reflect the overall political balance on the Council, so if you have a majority of one policy on the Council as a whole, you would expect to see on a politically balanced Committee, the majority of those members, then you have governance committees again, these are non-executive and include audit.

type functions, so the oversight of what's going on and

risk assessment and and and risk management, the governance committees will also include.

standards functions, so standards when I talk about standards are off, I'm referring to standards of conduct of of elective elected members, so they will be responsible for the oversight of all of that, and we'll also where a complaint has been made and it's been through an investigation.

a report will then be taken to a sub-committee of.

in this year of the Audit Standards Committee, audit and governance committee here.

so they have that role, that sort of check and balance oversight, that sort of thing governance more generally.

then, in the Executive system, again, what we have now is a there's a law that a legal requirement for for overview and scrutiny committees.

and their main role is to act as a check and balance on the Executive, so they, among other things, are able to what's known as a call-in decisions, certain key decisions and other decisions in fact off the Executive, and that might be on the basis that,

whoever has called the decision in, and it's no, it has to be at a number of Members, and there has to be certain the boxes ticked in terms of explaining why it's been called in and what the purposes, et cetera, so they might it might be called in because there's a feeling that in fact a different decision should have been taken or perhaps certain views haven't been expressed properly, so what then happens is that executive decision is in abeyance, it then goes to the Overview and Scrutiny Committee where,

representations are made about the the decision that Standing that's frozen at that time and then, at the conclusion of that, it goes back to the Executive,

so whether that be the Cabinet as a whole or the Leader, or it could be an officer who is taken or a key decision and executive key decision.

for them to reconsider, and of course they can then reaffirm the decision that was taken, but Scrutiny also acts as a I mean that's and after the event after the decision means of of of check and balance, but Scrutiny also is very effective where you have pre-decision scrutiny so Scrutiny might decide or be tasked with looking at particular area of,

interest and then reporting back and and then that feeding into the decisions that are then made by the Executive.

and then you have full Council, which is as it sounds.

full Council of all the members, all elected members.

and a full council have certain reserved functions, the only Full Council can take, I mentioned one earlier, which was to agree the annual budget, another one is to take decisions on certain policies that are part of what is known as a policy framework and we are going to have of course,

okay, so moving on.

so this is just a diagram of what the Council structure presently looks like a high level diagram, so all Council is that little blue box at the top.

there is no reason why it's so small, it's just.

it, as I say, is it's the umbrella, everything it essentially, apart from the executive function, sits under it?

so then, 0 in the top left there we've got the in in Orange the cabinet, which is the Executive, so that's the Leader and the Cabinet members, and they deal with all Executive functions, and that might include certain policies that are not part of the policy framework so they don't go to Full Council.

and anything, of course, that isn't expressly stated in legislation that it cannot be an executive function would fall here.

at present, and as I say, they can take collective decisions as cabinet or individual decisions as Executive Members and the, as I said, a Leader, all executive powers vested in the Leader.

then we've got in that top.

right corner in blue the overview and scrutiny committee I've just mentioned that the their their role, their functions, it's a check and balance, as I say, on on executive decision-making, but they can also look at other things, but their main focus is gonna be around.

feeding into one and acting as a check and balance on on the executive decision-making in the bottom left corner in green, we have the Planning and Licensing Committee.

that, as is the overview and scrutiny committee, is politically balanced.

and they have those roles, regulatory roles around whelks very surprisingly planning and licensing, and there's currently two Sub-Committees.

the the there will deal with with hearings around licensing matters, so that might be a review of a

a, a, a, a, a licence where there's been complaints made or determining you know whether someone should be granted a licence in the first place.

in the middle, in a kind of light brown beige colour, we have the personnel committee and that's a non-executive committee, that's politically balanced.

but there are committee, there are cabinet members, executive members on there and, in certain respects, that they are legally required to be part of that committee when making certain decisions, so they will be their role in the in summary is to be dealing with appointments to chief officer roles or making recommendations to Full Council about appointments to potential statutory officer roles.

and in dealing with HR and officer terms and conditions, and that sort of thing, and there they have a sub-committee which they set up to undertake interviews for Chief Officer appointments, and then finally we've got the audit and governance committee in the bottom right-hand corner and think.

politically balanced, non-executive, so, as I've said previously, they're looking at the corporate health to they're overseeing things and acting to.

you know, assess risk and make sure that the Council is complying with its own framework for decision-making and own governance framework, as well as dealing with member standards, and there is a sub-committee there that will be convened or is convened when, whenever a complaints of is made.

that that a councillor may have breached the Code of Conduct, and it's gone through an investigation, and the report comes back and is presented to that subcommittee, and they then make a decision on whether or not they find that there's a breach of the Code or not and then make recommendations or will make decisions about potential actions that flow from that.

so that the the current structure

so what is a committee system, so I've gone through the current structure and, as I say, that's an executive system, sorry in a committee system, all member decisions are made by politically balanced committees, so there's no no individual member decision-making, unlike in the executive system, so if a decision is to be made by members it has to go to committee.

and full Council is the supreme decision-making body.

and because there is no split in executive and non-executive all power flows or functions, if you will flow through full Council, however, you know lots of things or matters, and functions that are to be dealt with will be dealt with by committees that sit underneath full Council.

do you have policy committees, her resources, policy and resources committees they're often called, so what they are generally responsible for normally is to provide strategic direction to?

to exercise all functions that are not reserved to full Council or perhaps delegated to other committees or to officers, they will formulate corporate policies, make recommendations to full Council in relation to a policy if it is part of the policy framework that the Full Council has to determine.

they will do things like.

establish and maintain the framework for allocation and management of resources within the agreed budget, the agreed budget, of course, agreed by Full Council, and there will sometimes be taking decisions on things like the award of contracts, or perhaps the disposal or acquisition of property where,

the value of that is over a certain threshold.

another thing that a resource and policy committee might focus on, or would normally focus on, is to manage the Council's role as a shareholder in relation to

its ownership of of companies.

and often you will, you will also see.

a sub-committee set-up that specifically focuses on that.

and they'll also take responsibility for for HR and staffing appointment of chief officers and will make recommendations to Full Council, where required, in relation to those things, and again there's often.

or a sub-committee set-up which which will deal with that, specifically the HR and staffing functions, then you have functional committees and they are responsible for functions.

and so that would be.

perhaps taking decisions in relation to more to more specific areas such as housing, environmental matters, ACE management, tourism, car parking, that sorts of things are specific service areas, if you will, rather than overarching strategic decisions, they will also.

often they have responsibility for developing policies and strategy in relation to those

more specific functions.

then you have the governance committees which will be exactly the same.

as you might see in a an executive system, so Audit Committee

standards, Committee, that sort of thing.

and then

there's no, there's no legal requirement for an overview and scrutiny committee.

under the committee system, whereas there is in an Executive system and one and the main reason for that is because in under a committee system, you have decisions being taken by committees that are politically balanced.

there is wider member input, so the phrase that is used is that scrutiny takes place within the committees, whereas in an executive system, as I say often, it's a specific political grouping who are the Executive.

and other political groupings are not represented on there, which is why you need that secret memes of check and balance, whereas, as I say in a committee system, all decisions taken by or Member decisions taken by committee and,

therefore.

because it's political, it has to be politically balanced, you have that representation within the committee that, as I say, acts as that.

internal, if you like, check and balance, so that's why there is no legal requirement, it does not to say.

that you can't as part of a committee system, have an overview and scrutiny, but ma many don't, because that already inherent means of check and balance, and also you can you can put in place other things within the committee system which go towards that too.

so what's happened so far, so on the 21 of June last year there was a decision taken by Full Council to change, from an Executive system of governance, to a committee system of governance.

and the go live date, for that is May 2025, which is next year.

some might think it will quirky that's a long way away, it really isn't to be quite frank with you, it's you know, it's not an insignificant change to go from an Executive system to a committee system and there is a lot of

work required the background, not least.

we were putting together a whole new constitution to support the new system, so there is a lot of work to do and it's ongoing presently, so I'd like to tell you, from my perspective, having supported other councils through very similar.

it can take, and it should take a while, because you need to make sure that it's absolutely right and that everybody understands it, and everybody is able to hit the ground running in essence when, when the go-live happens.

in terms of developing the and making things happen towards, that go live date.

there has been a Constitution working group convened, and that is that consists of the four political group leaders and an independent member, and that's been supported by my from myself and led by the monitoring officer, and that is a forum in which the group leaders and the Independent Member can bring forward the thoughts from their own political groupings and one that can be focused and discussions can take place around what what the key principles were are, how do we want this to look and how is it going to work?

there's been a number of meetings so far.

to agree those principles in one headline structure in lieu go quite far on in that respect and but there's much more work to do as there always is, as I say, that it really is, you know, all the other timeframes might appear to be quite long, they're not.

because if there is a lot to so public consultation, so this this session comes off the back of the public consultation which took place.

last month, a net consultation was for the purpose of seeking the public's views around how the public are engaged with the decision making committees, so it was in essence saying, but as as you probably know, the Council presently has in place a system whereby the public can ask questions at Full Council.

what, but in terms of this new structure?

it was felt that it would be really helpful to go to the public and say I will look no basic premises, this will continue, of course it will, it's vitally important for public to have that means by which they can ask questions, but the quiet the the query as well what will that look like, will it just be yeah or will it simply be at full Council or will it be at the committees so?

I my understanding is that the responses

are or have been collated, or presently are being collated, and they'll be fed back to the working group for consideration as part of the process of developing, well specifically here the procedure rules around public questions, so thank you for you if you have.

input into that consultation exercise and they will all be taken into account any responses accordingly.

so this is the proposed committee structure, again we have full Council at the top there, albeit in blue small box, it is the supreme decision-making body, so the size of that box doesn't reflect that, it's just caused us to diagram, but so sitting underneath the Full Council the current proposal is to have a resources committee so that's policy and resources type stuff that I'd touched upon.

when I was explaining what the Committee system was, so that will be just to recap again politically balanced.

to so reflecting the political balance of the Council overall, and that will be taking dice, it'll have budget finance and cross cutting functions around spending, dealing with policies not reserved to Council or delegated elsewhere.

making or taking decisions on matters that hit certain thresholds and giving a strategic steer.

to the Council's operations.

the proposal is to have two sub-committees, one which will deal with the staffing matters so.

as I said earlier, appointing or recommending appointment of chief officers dealing with HR matters and and that's I think, terms and conditions, all the rest of that, so at present it is a separate committee to deal with that, but this would feed into or sit them under the umbrella of the resources committee but with a sub-committee to focus on that the other sub-committee would be to.

undertake the shareholder functions so where the Council is the shareholder.

in relation to certain companies, and there are a number that will be looked at through that Sub-Committee who will focus their remit is to focus on on that role, and that's good governance too, to have that sort of thing and then so that's the resources committee very briefly and then we've got the communities and environmental committee and these little assault functional this is a function type committee so it's looking at more specific services functions so as I mentioned previously things like housing,

and car parking and environmental matters, that sort of thing today will be not only making decisions in relation to each of those specific functions where required, due to do so, but they'll also be looking at the specific policy framework that sits behind them.

rather than sophomore a broader outlook, which will be the premise of the resources committee.

and there will be.

it is proposed that there will be a sub-committee which will deal with Housing services.

particularly because that, of course, is a very important function that the Council undertakes.

so then, in the bottom left we've got.

the a licensing regulatory committee and that again is politically balanced, as is the

are all the committees that are all there are all politically balanced, they have to be the committee system, so the the regulatory committee licensing regulatory committee will be dealing with things, licensing matters around so taxi licensing that sort of thing and then you'll also have a Licensing Act committee bill, they'll consist of the same members but technically in law they sit separately.

and the Licensing Act Committee deals with.

walks known as liquor licensing, I suppose.

and entertainments that sort of thing, so licensing of pubs clubs, restaurants, anyone that wants to serve alcohol or example, and provide entertainments, etc and that will be dealt with under the Licensing Act Committee, and they'll also look at Gambling Act stuff as well.

and then you have two Sub-Committees, so one sub-committee will be to enable hearings to take place in relation to the licensing regulatory committee matters so that, as I said, these things like taxi licensing, so someone may have applied for a licence and there might be some concerns and so rather than it being dealt with through officer delegation it goes before Members for for a hearing.

then you'll also have this other sub-committee, which deals with Licensing Act hearings, so, for example, a venue may have had there may have been some complaints about a certain venue, and the Sub-Committee would then undertake a review of the licence.

and and make the decisions as to whether the licence should remain or whether there should be additional restrictions, or whether it should be.

removed, so the Sub-Committees are further for those hearings, but there's two because they deal with the different arms of licensing, so on the one hand taxes and other things and on the other hand, Licensing Act, Gambling or Gambling Act matters.

then in the middle, you've also got Planning Committee in green as well, and the reason it's the same colour as the licensing one is because it's to indicate that they are regulatory functions so that, politically balanced, taking decisions on planning applications,

that are not dealt with under delegated powers to officers so that the the the those matters that are more significant or particularly contentious or all that sort of thing, and then you will have the audit and governance committee and then again that's the same as you presently have politically balanced looking at audit functions, Standards functions, making sure the Council is compliant with its own governance framework.

et cetera, et cetera, and then with a sub-committee for hearing of standards, complaints that have gone through.

an investigation and

recommendations and and and they will ultimately make that decision as to whether or not there has been a breach, so in terms of regulatory committees and

governance committees is very much the same as you would have in an executive structure anyway, the key changes in terms of the committee structure come with, you don't have an Executive, all your committees are politically balanced and then you have these.

committees that sit underneath Full Council that take decisions on matters that ordinarily in an Executive system would have been taken by by the Executive.

so the Committee sorry, the constitution working group has been looking at some headline principles around how the system should work that should underpin and run through the new system, now one of them is to retain the use of key decisions and the Forward Plan.

I accept you, some of you might not be aware as to what key decisions and a forward plan is, I'll explain, I'll try to explain so in an Executive system of governance.

certain decisions that to be taken are called key decisions, and they are what makes a key decision while it's something that.

is significant, so it might be something that, in terms of monetary value, is over a certain threshold.

or has a significant impact on two or more wards within the Council's area, so if a decision is considered to be a key decision falls into that definition, then there is a legal requirement for.

a certain amount of notice to be given before that decision is taken, so it's 28 days notice.

it can be less if there are good reasons for it to be less so urgency and what have you, but I won't go into that.

and what the forward plan is is.

it's well, it's the the the vehicle through which notice is given, if you like, so, if the Council knows that it's gonna be making a key decision on something or other, then the notice of that is put into the forward plan.

and published so you know, and and often to be, as you know, not just 28 days notice there'll be as much notice as possible, so if the Council knows that

a few months down the line, it's gonna be looking at a certain issue, then they'll put that in there and perhaps add to the detail that's in the Forward Plan as time ticks on towards the decision date, there is no requirement to have a section or committee system.

and it, I should say, key decisions traditionally it relates to executive decisions and not non-executive but, as I say under the committee system, we don't have that distinction, so but the Council, and certainly the Committee, sorry, the CA, the Constitution working group recognised that it's really helpful to give

you know as much notice as possible of about decisions that might be considered to be significant, so the proposal is to retain the use of the term key decisions as it relates to a decision that is significant and also to have that forward plan still to say Well this is what's on the horizon and this is when it's proposed that this decision will be made so that it,

assists will not only.

members of the Council officers of the Council, but the public and other interested parties to see what's what's coming up and how do we know it is this something we're interested in, and how can we then feed into that, so that's that's proposed to be retained, there won't be adoption of overview and scrutiny functions if you remember, I said that,

they're not legally required under a committee system that is still correct, and that is because of the the fact that scrutiny of to will take place within the committees because they are politically balanced, but I also mentioned that there are things other things you can add into a committee system which will reflect,

schemes of of check and balance that might have.

in something that happened to overview and scrutiny, so proposal is that there's a decision process and what that means is.

where a decision has been taken by resources committee or the communities, environment committee and the sub-committees and any key decisions that are taken by officers under delegated powers can be reconsidered by the full Council or another committee where?

certain requirements are met in terms of does it hit certain thresholds, so a decision process is not something that should be used very often if at all, it's it's the exception, but it's there as a means of of what is a safety valve in essence so there are proposed.

provisions within a decision policy that have to be met.

before it can then be rescinded because it's really important as well to have certainty around decision making so over use of such a process isn't gonna be helpful around that, but it's there to be used where it needs to be. There's also proposals for a referral process and that is a means by which members can request that a key decision that is published in the Forward Plan so Forward notice is given adequate notice is given that's going to be taken by an officer is instead taken by members in Committee.

again, there are requirements in terms of hitting certain thresholds to be able to activate that process, but it's there to be used if needs be.

there might be a very good reason why a key decision that the that is due to be taken by an officer should instead go to Committee and if that process is activated, then, as I say, it will divert that decision away from the officer.

to the Committee to try to determine the scheme of delegation.

which is a essential part of any form of governance, whether it be Executive or Committee.

to enable officers of the Council to undertake the day to day decision-making and make decisions in relation to

in operational matters, et cetera.

the proposal here and it's not proposal it's.

that's alien to the Council, because it's how it operates presently, is that it's a scheme of delegation by exception, so that means that everything's delegated unless stated to be accepted from that so.

whether that be accepted because the law itself says that it can't be delegated, so an example of that is set in budget or whether the constitution says

this particular matter is to be determined by such such Committee and not by officers states.

and then it cascades down, so you will then have.

schemes of delegation sitting within directorates where a Director will then sub delegate down.

but that is a very effective and very common means of delegating to officers and something that's certainly a lot more

important in a committed system is is being able to enable officers to take decisions, because.

because you don't have an Executive who can make decisions outside of Committee.

so committee chairs will have the function or role of the what are normal standard role of ensuring that committees are run in accordance with the rules, that decisions are made properly and procedure is followed and to.

to lead the meeting et cetera, but in addition to that it's been decided that they will also take on a role as a spokesperson is what we've referred to it as.

and that's really important that it's not confused with an executive or folio role, so as I've mentioned, the Executive is normally split and is split at the Council into portfolios, but the differences that with the Executive system,

save, for example, the Executive Member for Housing will have delegated powers to be able to take decisions individually about matters falling within their portfolio in the committee system, there is no individual member decision-making, it's all by committee, so there are some similarities, of course, with between a spokesperson rather than a and a portfolio, but the key thing is

the spokesperson, the committee chair, is there to act on behalf of the Committee because the committee is the body that makes the decision, and they act as a conduit through which communications can come from the Committee to third parties, to officers et cetera, so they will be another word would be a champion for there.

area, the the area that the Committee covers, but they won't be the same as the portfolio holder because they can't be.

so they will act as a spokesperson on behalf of their Committee,

and then the Well Les, as you'll know, members.

as a members' allowance scheme, so there's a basic allowance and special allowances, and the independent remuneration panel is has been convened and is looking at, and considering revisions to allowances and will make recommendations in that respect, moving forward to reflect the change in,

you know the the the CQC, to the committee system.

so how will this affect you well in a nutshell, in terms of being somebody a member of the public who receives services from the Council, it will there'll be no impact?

you will still receive services, the key here is a change in how decisions are made internally, if you like, and and so you won't necessarily notice any change in terms of.

at how your services are delivered and how they're received, unless of course decisions are made as they could be in an Executive system about how the Council goes about something, but that's not because it's a committed system, it's just because decisions are made, so the change in and of itself isn't going to affect the delivery of services to the public.

and so that means, of course, that residents and businesses will still have.

have the means of contacting their ward councillors about anything that's concerning them or aid support with, and then there's also other rights, if you like, the the are still gonna be the same, so among other things and subject to any sort of relevant procedures that apply members of the public can attend council meetings, I can find out information about the decisions that are going to be made, so looking at agendas reports

minutes

unless there's, unless it's involving exempt or confidential information, in which case you know it wouldn't be disclosed, but that's the same, whether it's Executive or committee.

there'll be, as there are now rights to speak at meetings of the Planning Committee, and they'll be right to speak at licensing and registration hearings.

it still present petitions and participate in question time at meetings of the Council now in terms of question time, as I mentioned earlier, there has been a consultation exercise, so I can't give you the exact details as to what that might look like other than to say there will be.

f, or a facility to ask questions.

but at what meetings and in what for that is to be settled, subject to looking at the consultation responses, of course, and you can still make complaints in much the same way.

that you might be able to make a complaint now, so you will need all of this, is gonna be posted over, it's not going to change and the key thing is, as I say, it's not gonna affect how you receive your service at your functions and the services that are received by members of the public.

so that brings us to questions if there are any.

I can hand back over to you, Councillor Martin.

Microphone Thirteen - 0:51:15

thank you very much, David, I'm sure we'll all agree, are very, very comprehensive and date order.

ran through the committee system.

I'm sure members are, as I've got many burning questions now, but we do have a members of the public here this evening and this is a consultation for the public, so I'm very, very happy to invite any member of the public present to to ask a question you can come forward and ask the question on the mic.

we would very much like to hear what you think, even if it's not a question

thank you.

thank you very much to come forward.

Microphone Forty - 0:52:11

hi my name is Georgina Baker and I have looked at briefly what's been going on with this, and I think the committee system is a much fairer system for the general public as well and for more people to be involved in this to make a decision. It's key and has to be a fair system. My question is really, and how does the general public gets know about all of this? I mean I'm picking up from people that potentially I I might know, but where where do we find out about these things that are happening? It's not that easy for the general public to find out about this

saying Hey, Georgina

well, the the the starting point would be via the Council's website, at lots of information is published there around.

you know what decisions are coming up and what decisions have been made, information around reports, information about how you can get involved with the Council, et cetera, but specifically in terms of the process of of the change from the Executive to the committee system, I should have said the the the Constitution working groups all with all of them have been.

webcast as they take place and are available to to watch as well.

if you are to, or if you have watched them, hopefully your your yeah, of course there is much more detail, has gone into in those groups and I've been able to cut across here so, but if you haven't seen them I I would suggest that might be a good place to to have a look if you're wanting to to understand about,

the process of change in how that comes about, but once once the change comes into being, the Council will still be, as we said, that publishing a forward plan with details of of of key decisions to be made, as well as all the other information around what meetings are taking place, what is going to those meetings for decisions to,

to be taken and.

as well as a a plethora of other information that's on on the website, there is a lot on there, including the constitution, of course, so you know the constitution which, as I said, is

the the user guide or the user manual, if you like, or the book of rules as to how the Council operates, he you can find lots of information in there too, so, and I'm I'm sure as well the Council actively puts out information, whether it be through their press office or or elsewhere or through disclosure logs or whatever so so.

all of that will still be there, it's just that, the the system, sitting behind it will be different so yeah, but hopefully that helps

Microphone Thirteen - 0:55:11

or answers your question, Georgina thanks David Georgina, if I could add this Keane, appear to be an extraordinarily complex issue to try and separate, because there's your so much information there, but they're effectively what you said is is correct, the committee system is a more democratic system and, and that's why this Council are pursuing it

traditionally, the view is that you can get things done more quickly with the cabinet system, because you're involving less people, so the Executive can move more quickly, but that's just a matter of opinion, there is no doubt that the committee system is a more democratic procedure, what I would say and safer anybody in the district if you have a question or a query or want something explained then I'm very very happy if you write to me.

as the Leader of the Council, or Jim Doc Martin, at focusing the hype.

at dot gov dot uk Councillor McConville, Councillor Prater, who were here this evening, also serve on the on the working group, and I'm sure I can speak for them when, when I said I would be very happy to answer any questions there will be.

Over the next few months, a number of opportunities to engage to to have details explained in all honesty.

that the reason that we've got an expert like Daddy Kitson involved is really to guide us through this extraordinarily complex matter.

but I'm very, very confident and the that what we want, we're seeking a more democratic process, will ultimately be achieved, but any questions sustain and that the and if I can't answer it personally, I will get our expert David Kitson to to answer thank you.

the obvious another question soccer.

Microphone Thirteen - 0:57:25

Microphone Forty - 0:57:35

hi everybody, I'm very pleased that this Council has gone over to the committee system, as has previously been said, I'm sure it'll be a lot more democratic and that is only to be applauded, I'm very disappointed, though, that it's not happening for another year when initially the date was set at May this year.

but that's all now, and there was one other thing I wanted to say regarding how people know about what's going on in the Council will look how many members of the public we've got here this evening, something's not right with the communications to the public,

maybe more people in the public will be engaged once they see the community system working, but could I please implore somebody whoever is responsible to find a better way than just your website of letting people know what's happening, thank you.

thank you very much.

Microphone Thirteen - 0:58:35

yeah, I mean in terms of the communications we we look, we review it's not only a website we do, yeah, we do do wow what are called press releases, but they go on to Facebook. I'm yeah, but we're happy to engage really in in whatever why is is possible, that the key thing I think about this this period, and particularly this extension, is to find out what people think before we implement. The biggest problem for me is if we go live with something and then you know, we've got something wrong or people disagree with what we've done or councillors can't can't work it out or or whatever you know on some really really keen to use this time for as many question and answer sessions as we can. There's a there's a programme of training for all of my fellow Councillors and no, I'm gonna desperately need it, Berbera. I'm on on similarly disappointed. I are committed personally to the to the one year timetable but it is so complex and

I want to get it right rather than get it wrong, and have to sort it out as we go, so that that's really the right one, but thank you very much for your question.

David, thank you very much.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:00:01

Microphone Thirteen - 1:00:09

wrong diverted, OK, we've got a new need to play with.

Microphone Forty - 1:00:13

in addition to the 100,000 pounds you set aside for this process, you responded postponed the whole system for another year, are you going to increase that budget?

Microphone Thirteen - 1:00:25

and you'll have to turn him on yeah, that's it so now no increase in in the budget at the the the the real, if you look at the Committees that we've got it, so the the new committee system means a new constitution, our constitution has to be rewritten and the first point that we would have to have a new constitution would be to audit and governance which I think was at the end of February so so where this is the end of our stay.

consultation period, so we were on a very, very tight timetable to try and get it all right in one here, sod ye, the extension has been to allow for more consultation, more interaction, more questions, more answers and hopefully that we get it right in one hit.

Microphone Forty - 1:01:22

a second question, and in your experience of transferring these systems to the different councils, do they cost more money to run than a cabinet system, or is there a difference I'll have to pass that over

Microphone Thirteen - 1:01:36

to our expert, Mr Kitson, could you give us a view on that one?

I can certainly give you a view, it doesn't necessarily always follow that they cost more to run, but they can do it because there's a need for well, I think Councillor Martin touched upon it earlier in the sense that,

well, and certainly I've touched upon it in the presentation or member decisions by committee so.

often these are at an increased need for support and resources from an office aside doesn't mean to say that always happens, of course, and I think as well just on on these points around, you know that the deadline or the the the go live date being next year rather than this year.

it is it's really helpful and interesting to hear from those who have spoken are members of the public who have spoken so far, who all have expressed.

that they're very pleased that that there's gonna be this change to the committee system because it's more democratic.

what I would say is that feeds into why it's so important to get it right as well, you know, it's, it is very complex, the change over and it's incredibly important that when the change happens, everybody understands it, everybody's on board with it and it can end and people can hit the ground running and you know as much as,

you know that there was every intention at the outset of having this done in a year, I think there was a realisation that, perhaps, yeah, yes, we could potentially rush this through and we could push things into place, but that would potentially undermine.

the effectiveness and the acceptance of that new system, which, as I said from the sound of things, is a system that is very much welcomed by members of the public, so it's really important that.

that system is as bespoke as it can be, for the councils and the public's needs and is effective from day one and doesn't require, I mean, there will be things that perhaps will need to be tweaked, but certainly I would suggest a lot less than if you know that things had gone through this year rather than next.

so hopefully that's helpful.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:04:02

David just to say that at the moment the officer time is focused very much on the Executive on 9 cabinet members. What the committee system will do will be to spread the load away from the Executive, the the nine selected Councillors and to include all 30 Councillors. So there is a kind of scenario which could think of where it could actually save money. Sorry it. It means that you know that so one or one of the things that I am particularly keen on is that we get a better geographical spread across the district, so so we get a greater, shall we say, voice for the Marsh

because there are the the their councillors are more geographically spread, it is it's difficult for them in in the current system, so so far I can't see anything but advanced use to it, it's just this transition is is is the problem, it's moving from one system to another one, and that's what's causing us the difficulties at the moment.

I am sure the people on the margins deny there's work, I'd like to,

Microphone Forty - 1:05:17

but I think that would be the case, just thank you very much.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:05:25

any member of the public wish to ask another question.

stripping out yet more unwelcome.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:05:35

and just based on that gentleman's.

Microphone Forty - 1:05:40

a question really at 100,000 pounds for the general public that we're looking at that one, and if they don't understand the political system at all, have no idea of what's going on, they'll just go why you wasting 100,000 pounds on this when things seemed to be working OK,

I can see the benefit of this, I think that needs to be put over to the general public, really clearly why it's so beneficial.

I think again it's that communication process, this is so instrument with with with with politics people aren't generally interested in, you know what we're doing here today, they're more interested in probably during the tea for the kids et cetera paying the next bill so they need to have it out there that it's easy to get access to not just people online most people aren't searching for this sort of thing they need to have it there in their face, especially,

maybe more than more vulnerable people out in the community, how would you get that out to them because they're not going to be searching for this information, they need it very clearly put forward to themselves.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:06:54

OK, OK, I can answer that in terms of an example, in in in June 2019 in this Chamber there was a vote to to abandoned princess pride project, which was successful, it was a motion brought by Councillor Prater, but that that decision wasn't taken forward cabinet.

because the Leader set the agenda, so all the Leader decided to do was not put that on the agenda, so Cabinet never voted on it, now, completely within the rights completely within the constitution, completely on it now that decision and that action cost this Council four and a half million pounds so a hundred thousand pound invested in a fairer, more democratic system seems to me to be money well spent and I'm sure it will pay PAYE benefits, but that is that is the problem with the cabinet system is the focus of power in in, in particular into the leader I know

I have had the Leader to get rid of a cabinet system, you need a lot like a Turkey voting for Christmas, you need a leader who wants to abolish the role of leader.

but that that is, that is what drives us.

Kay sans my question, thank you.

Microphone Forty - 1:08:16

Microphone Thirteen - 1:08:18

any other member of the public wishing to ask a question are out because I'll move on to two Councillors, you've you've a Whitehead for.

so what we've got, David Kitson of I be able to you, know more than me most of you, so while we've got David here, perhaps we can we can ask Davidson some questions, Laura thank you, Councillor Martin, we're

Microphone Twenty-two - 1:08:40

just picking up on that point that you made there about the abolition of the leader within the new structure is that is that what's proposed for this there won't be a a leader or deputy leader in this structure.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:08:54

David, can you give us a steer on that, one, that there will be a leader and deputy leader, the differences that there still needs to be a political figurehead, or you know someone who represents the the Council and acts as a conduit, but and yes, of course, there'll be the the committee chairs, but there will still be a leader and deputy leader, it's just that they won't have individual decision-making powers and their role won't be as necessarily as political, if you like, as it might be under an executive system, so without I can't think of any other council

that has a committee system that doesn't have a leader and deputy leader role, so the intention is that those roles will be.

retained, but if, as I say inherently different, because there isn't that

the vesting of power, if you like, within the Leader, to make decisions, it's it's a more of a representative capacity.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:09:57

thank you, David yeah, well I mean we've talked about this at length in the in the constitutional working group and any it will be a you know, we've used the term spokesperson or champion or whatever, but you need someone that is gonna be that conduit that has a name but effectively they they've got as much decision-making power as any other Councillor, so so as opposed to the system that we've currently got where portfolio holders had got decision-making power, it is very much a shift so you know if we call them we could call him leader call him whatever but we're effectively you're just on other Councillor.

Rebecca

Microphone Thirteen - 1:10:46

Sarah Osborn - 1:10:51

following up on that, with the with the Leader Deputy Leader, would they be that the chairs of those committees?

likelihood.

I mean, 0 sorry, David.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:11:01

no, no, no, its findings find that Councillor Martin Hugo go ahead.

I was just going to say that that would seem to be the simplest thing

Microphone Thirteen - 1:11:08

they don't have to be, but that would that would be the kind of simplest thing to to to do you have a common sense point of view.

have you got anything to add to that David Hill?

Microphone Thirteen - 1:11:23

what you said absolutely spot on.

but yet normally you, the the the leader in her committee system, would be the Chair of the policy committee or resources committee, as it's been termed here and put doesn't have to be, but normally is yeah.

any other questions, Councillor Lowe and Councillor Nick.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:11:48

thank you very much.

Jo Robinson - 1:11:53

very interested in the breakdown of the possible new committees, and my question is, you've got the Planning and the Licensing split into two separate committees where currently it seems to actually work very, very well, not everyone gets the decisions they want, but the actual process works really well as planning and licensing, so I'm just wondering why those two are being split out because that would increase costs as well.

I'm just wondering if we could maybe re-look at that and bring it back into one, because it's a you know.

we're really good process that works at the moment and the staff now able to deal with each other and how to deal with us councillors as well, thank you.

Over to you on that one, David

Microphone Thirteen - 1:12:39

yeah, it was a very valid point in terms of ideally you should have the licensing and planning separated out, because there is a requirement.

in law to have a separate, let's have a committee set aside or set up to deal with licensing matters, often that will be, and as I explained in the in the in the in the presentation, exactly the same members, he just sits with it's in essence,

sitting for one matter and then rising and then ending the meeting and then sitting again and and what have you, but we can certainly take. This is the purpose of the the the constitution. Working group is to take these views on board from group members and to feed them into into it into the the principles and the structure and how things worked. I'm sure it's something that that can be considered at the next or the future meeting of the Constitution working group

Microphone Thirteen - 1:13:46

thank you, David, if I could add Councillor mate, we.

I don't envisage any change at all Licensing Act yeah, apart from you've separately from Planning, we have excellent officers that guide us through licensing, which can be very, very, very difficult. Obviously we have excellent officers at planning as well, and very good Chair I understand at the moment, but are I'd done, audits of the of all of the functions? I don't see, I see that one is probably remaining exactly the same. They're might, video tweak or something, but but this is one of the things that we have to kind of talk about at the constitutional working group but yeah, Deputy Turkey's speaking

Microphone Thirty - 1:14:41

the when we've discussed at a constitutional working group, it's exactly as you say, we're envisaging it remaining the same, it's the same group of people you just sit with a different hat on, depending on what type of meeting it is, so we may have to invest in some hats, but apart from that, I think it will remain as it is and then come back on Georgina's point from earlier. You're right, nobody is ever going to vote for 100,000 pounds to row and think 100,000 pounds is an exciting thing to spend on a constitutional review, but it's what it gets you, it's useful, what does it mean to the person out there and what it gets them, and if all it gets them, is the really exciting way that we phrased it, but revocation and decision process there. At the moment you've got the process whereby if a council makes a decision that you don't like, you can ask somebody to call it in to overview and scrutiny committee, which is also an excitingly woolly process, and they call it in and they talk about it and they say we don't like the decision very much and give it back to the people who made it in the first place who ignore you. The revocation of a decision process that you have here is that if no decision has been called into that, according to a body that can actually change the thing

and actually say No, we can do something else instead you've widened, who can actually have the say in that it's not going to be easy to call that and you will need a lot of councillors to say no really can we think about this again please and call it in but you can so members of the public can make something happen by speaking to their Councillor and getting enough councillors to say change that.

one thing to do don't like it, you've missed something there's a step here that you have missed, you can change it, not just get somebody to say, I think you need to look at this again and then they're not looking again and if that isn't worth every pound I don't know what is.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:16:29

thank you very much, do I see any any other burning questions anyone, but I mean to 0 sorry you indicate.

the Chief Executive, however, I thought I was going to get asked a seriously difficult questionnaire, but I mean I'm sure David would agree with me that the more kind of chit-chat we can have, the more discussion we can have, the more questions you can get answered, I think collectively we will all you know feel more confident going forward are on this journey.

and I'm sure I'm sure they are any questions that you send to me, obviously I won't answer that myself, I will pass them on to Mr Kitson.

another question, thank you very much.

Microphone Forty - 1:17:26

before this meeting ends, can I please reiterate what Georgina said.

to let people know about the sorts of meetings, it's no good, just putting it online, can you please put up some posters in places like clubs, schools, the libraries, people don't know that these meetings are on that. Is that's all I wanted to say, I beg you to try harder to get the public engaged. Thank you OK, thank you very much for that Susan and Adrian

Microphone Thirteen - 1:17:58

Microphone Twenty-one - 1:18:03

so just for the record, for people watching online or watching later, there are three members of the public here, one of whom I retrieved from Castle Hill Avenue, who just felt locked out and not welcome.

Microphone Thirteen - 1:18:22

okay, well we'll we'll try and remedy that, and any other questions from councillors or all I can do is thank you all for attending, thank you, particularly to the members of the public who have come along and have still what they asked us questions and got Goddess on the spot and I hope that you stay engaged.

any e-mail that you sent to me, I will reply to whether it's with David's expert help or or just me, so do do you know, Phil, feel very, very welcome in this process to my fellow Councillors and

thank you all for attending and I look forward to all of your complicated and very detailed questions, but finally, in closing, just to thank David Kitson Live from Leeds, I understand there is a very famous Who album called Live at Leeds and so thank you very much David if you're don't follow in the tradition of the hoe and smash up all your instruments at the end of your performance OK thanks very much everyone, thank you.

Public Consultation event - Monday 5 February 2024, 6:00pm - Feedback Tab - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting