Personnel Committee

Personnel Committee
Tuesday, 12th March 2024 at 2:00pm

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Slide 1
Cllr Connor McConville
Ms Jemma West
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Nicola Keen
Cllr Connor McConville

2 Declarations of Interest

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Declarations of Interest

3 Voluntary Redundancy

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Report - Voluntary Redundancy Update - March 2024 - final

Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Nicola Keen
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Elaine Martin
Cllr Connor McConville
Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Nicola Keen
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee
Cllr Nicola Keen
Dr Susan Priest
Cllr Nicola Keen
Cllr Connor McConville
Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Connor McConville

4 Pay Policy Statement 2024/25

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Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee
Cllr Connor McConville
Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville

5 Pay Award 2024/25

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Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Nicola Keen
Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee
Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Elaine Martin
Ms Andrina Smith
Cllr Connor McConville
Cllr Connor McConville
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:00:13

Good afternoon and welcome everyone to the meeting of the personnel committee. This meeting will be webcast live to the internet. For those who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you will need to leave the Chamber for members officers and others speaking at the meeting. It is important that the microphones are used so that viewers on the webcast and others in the room may hear you would anyone with a mobile phone please switched to silent as they can be distracting. I would like to remind members that, although we have strong opinions on matters under consideration, it is important to treat members, officers and public speakers with respect afternoon everyone, in thanks for attending this special meeting of the personnel committee,

Ms Jemma West - 0:00:56

number 1, apologies for absence, Gemma we've received an apology from

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:00:59

Councillor Holgate, thank you very much item number 2 declarations to any Members have any declarations of a personal, prejudicial interest, Catherine.

Cllr Nicola Keen - 0:01:13

yeah, I met branch of the FA Kent local government in center, no celebrating no Convener, so.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:01:21

thank you very much, anything else, okay.

2 Declarations of Interest

1 Apologies for Absence

3 Voluntary Redundancy

and then we move on to the substantive business Item number 3, headline volunteers, voluntary redundancy, and angina introduces please, thank you.

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:01:34

so the report in front of this Committee has come about due to a voluntary redundancy request, and we received back in October 2023 and the resulting pension strain, which is due to the postholder's age of being over 55, pension strain cost is payable by the employer and there is no choice in this matter as part of the pension regulations post the strain is explained in section 2.8 of the report which is page 7 of the pack and based on a normal retirement age of 67.

and life expectancy of 90, the all GPs expect to pay pension for 23 years, that's how they forecast, however, if the member retires at 60, for example, always made redundant 60, there is an extra seven years to pay over and above what has been in the pension forecast.

as you have seen from the report, we followed the correct procedures by requesting a bulk estimate and acted in good faith on that information, whilst it's relatively common for an estimated figure to change slightly when the final costs are requested, if redundancy takes place to see an increase in the order of the one highlighted here from 64,000 up to 151,000 is not something that could have been foreseen.

this is particularly relevant given that the employee declared an interest in amalgamating their pensions when they started here in 2017, as you have seen in Section 3.3 of the report on page 8, and therefore it's reasonable to have expected the estimate provided to be accurate and not find out later that Pensions had not acted on that information is worth reiterating here as well and all the other pension strain payments that we've had to make as a result of the voluntary redundancy scheme have been less than the estimate that came in when the final costs had been received.

as soon as we were made aware of the increase in the pension costs.

we did brief the Chair amongst the Leader and Deputy Leader so that they were briefed as soon as that that kind of awareness was was raised

we continue to challenge the current pension fund on directions and or possibly the lack of action there, the pension strain is still payable by the Council and therefore this report is requesting that you recommend to Council that they note the redundancy and the associated costs for this employee at the next meeting in April.

must be happy to take any questions Chair, thank you very much, Anjuna

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:03:53

Members, do you have any questions regarding the the report or any points of clarification, Councillor Hollingbery?

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:04:05

well, I'm I'm not sure about questions, but it's it's very disappointing to to have this report in front of us, I can see that all the actions being taken and it it's not the fault of the Council but on the other hand it beggars belief to be honest when I read the HRA when I read it I thought this can't be right, it seems so ridiculously different.

variety, I suppose, at the end of the day, we have to accept it, as you say, it's a, it's a statutory payment that we have to make and.

other than perhaps not not agreed to the voluntary redundancy, there's not other any other measures M H measures that we could take.

I say I listened to what everybody else says.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:04:58

Cllr Nicola Keen - 0:04:59

Councillor Caine, I haven't got a toe surprised.

I'm part of that scheme and I've

the amount of complaints I think may be, I don't think we can, I don't know, is there every course have they acted outside?

if this is something they have failed to do, there has got to be said, some redress, and the bit that frightens me is people taking pensions are waiting a long, long time to get their first payment, it should be the first pay day, I think that maybe we need to bite the bullet and and deal with this person, but I think we need to take this up we can and and take it up to the highest level because we're getting this on an almost monthly basis and people are actually frightened to take retirement.

I have one woman wait seven months for her pension.

so I really feel that we can't just let it go, we've got to really go higher, but we've got to honest this man, this woman's.

you know, was that sitting in someone's in-tray for a long, long time and didn't get actioned, I'd find it really hard to believe that it was done on purpose, but regardless.

it needs to be rectified for him, it's his entitlement, so can we, I don't know I would go to Paul Royle in the first instance because this is a disgrace and it's costing us a lot of money, but I think Paul Royle and a man even amount of paper copies of both in.

in terms of being.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:06:43

Councillor Martin, did you have anything to add?

Cllr Elaine Martin - 0:06:47

I just want to convert them you agree with everything Nicholas said, I mean, this is a sort of outrageous sort of difference and just that you know just be reassured that every every thing has been done to to go and try and get some redress from the from the pension fund it's just you know that the fact that I didn't know it just

unbelievable, really.

thank you.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:07:12

just sort of linking into Councillor Kane's point I mean.

I mean, I asked at the time, if if, if any, were any other councils who had experienced anything similar to know, since that period has there been any more for work as anything else that had come to light? Is there any of this? If there's a few councils out there, then we're

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:07:34

more likely to put that pressure on you know with the same voice, so we know the Ashworth have had this to come up a couple of times and Councillor Kane you absolutely right yeah one of their employees is taken over a year to resolve and they are still waiting to get their pension

I did raise it at the Kent HR network a couple of weeks ago and more so to raise awareness estimates, although keeping their eyes on it.

none of the others had actually come across any of that, but they haven't been the same sort of scheme.

in the way that we have, however, yet again, the awareness is there and we will keep you in contact about it, and it's not just this in terms of redundancy, we're actually dealing with no health retirement at the moment for someone that left a while ago and he just put it in context.

the person is seriously ill, we've gone through all the occupational health done that very quickly, they turned it round quickly, pensions sit on it for 28 days, that's the time even for turning things round, and then they ask us a very quick question, are you sure about the date you put in the report?

at which point the 28 day clock restarts and these personally sit in their seriously seriously ill and can't get to the pension, so it's not just this, it's a wider Kent pension issue.

I think it's a legacy of the previous pension administration and the way that it was run, there's been a lot of changes in the last 18 months, but with the volume of work that goes through, it takes time to sort out.

Cllr Nicola Keen - 0:08:57

I just came to make a point here and I would suggest you do it.

when you are what we do now for members, is we go to the point of, says a voice?

and before us press the button for it to go, I ask them to confirm to me there's no more information, because every time you asked question Bryce Dallas, like o'clock.

but that isn't that isn't old, that's no. That's the know. This is the new administration and I've had this argument ha but not HR have taken it to Paul Royle and Amanda beer, and it's ridiculous. It's their money at the end of the day and when they're retiring from Ken, they but I don't know if they were clutching at straws, but one women act to prove that she was divorced for what reason I never did. I've still not had the a male to tell me why she'd given a birth certificate and a photo of the day and they steal that because that hadn't happened in the question was our clock goes back. It's a ridiculous system that KCC on even happy with, so because don't forget, although there are pension, that they sit outside of tenancy, say they're very law unto themselves.

but we've got to do what we've got to do, what's best for our people?

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:10:17

we now agreed if.

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:10:19

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:10:20

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:10:20

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:10:22

once I concentrate I, I think we just have some sort of mechanism, I think, to feed back to the committee whatever conversations go on with with KCC or other councils just just to keep us in the loop in terms

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:10:34

of moving forward Councillor Walmsley, I just wanted to ask one and I think it's in Liverpool actually I mean I've read the report quite a few times.

that there's nobody else at the moment in that situation, or them the Council, not from our Councillor, because that would be horrendous if we then got to go back to Council with another one.

so at the end of the day.

that?

Cllr Nicola Keen - 0:11:05

Dr Susan Priest - 0:11:10

for me, and I am sorry to bring this to two members, it's it's really not the sort of report that either Andrew and I would relish bringing, as you say, it's no through no fault of the actual individual member of staff as far as we can make out.

we have looked long and hard because we were significantly shocked when this came about, and so we have looked long and hard about our own actions. I agree. I think there is the pressure to be put on Kent Pensions Board and staff around that and certainly we can take the sentiment in the essence of this committee and and do that and report back as as you requested Chair

and also just really to highlight that, in addition to the HR network that Andrew has highlighted, I have highlighted it with the Kent chief execs group,

when when it first happen, when we first came across it, and there is just the two examples that Ashford at the moment, but of course I will also share any correspondence with other Kent chief so again that they know that it's just something to be alive to but on a more positive note,

the guests talking to your last question was really about just future mitigation, and then we put in an unduly important section for really about what we're seeking to do to try and ensure that we're not in this position again and we're not having to come to you again with this we couldn't think of anything beyond the two actions that we've gotten here and we've got a high level of confidence that that actually would,

help us to capture anyone or to prevent this this example from happening again.

but I will have to say I was not aware of the length of time taken for the ill health retirement, which is another concern, and if we're writing, we may well with your blessing and add that in actually in terms of off of that example, if you're if the committee is happy with that,

Cllr Nicola Keen - 0:13:10

thank you to quite question, considering that a lot of councillors are in financial difficulty, they are, we talked again about instalments, and I do feel that we should why we already you know, we've got a budget issue, they've got a budget issue a little bit of me thinks you know, but I don't I do believe our side of the story 100% because I know

I've got more than my fair share of issues with them.

and to be honest, how we've already got a very tight budget, that's a lot of money out of our budget and I think they should fight for instalments unless they can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it's from our end and I don't believe that I think we should it's a

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:13:58

fair congenial scheme.

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:14:00

as a response to that, but we can certainly try they removed the option of making pension instalments a couple of years ago, that's not even an option any more when you used to get a retirement come through and redundancy costs, you'd have the lump sum payment or you'd have the three, I think it's only three years you'd have the instalments that got removed a couple of years ago so I wouldn't hold out much hope for that.

Ms Angelina.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:14:24

Council, obviously this will go on to full Council after here and it's in its journey, so are we are we happy to put this forward to full Council, so I'd propose Haskayne second Councillor Martin and all in favour.

OK, thank you.

4 Pay Policy Statement 2024/25

right, so I'm moving on Item number 4, the pay policy statements, and then again just an update on this, thank you, Andrew Lord, thank you.

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:14:53

so this committee only saw the updated Pay Policy statement at the last meeting, however, in light of the previous report that you've seen on redundancy, it became more important to actually review a particular section of the Pay Policy Statement.

and in previous public statements and paragraph 47 of the statement on page 30 of your pack, and if you're looking at the appendix where you've got the track, changes has always had a line, stating that an exit package in excess of 100,000 would be taken to Council to vote on that package and one of the components being the pension costs required to be paid by the Council to all GPs.

this bullet point is the pension strain that we've just been talking about in the previous report.

in section 2.3 of the covering report, which is page 12, I've set out the legal definition of redundancy for you, which does also cover voluntary redundancy situations.

if the Council is deleting a role from its structure that is deemed to be for the reasons of redundancy under the LGPS pension regs, there is no choice but to pay the pension strain if that members over 55 years of age, therefore, in actual fact a true redundancy situation makes it inappropriate to suggest the Council would have a choice in whether or not to approve that exit package, which is why we are proposing to remove that bullet point from paragraph 47.

we don't have a history of enhanced redundancy payments or pension payments and officers leaving the Council do so receiving their entitlements as set out in our policies, so any payments brought to Council on these elements are ones that we have no choice but to pay as an aside the number of officers that have pension string figures and bringing any exit payment close to that 100,000 pounds threshold has grown in recent years and that is potentially due to the changes and to career average calculations in relation to pension rather than final pay.

and it's not, just as you might imagine, senior managers to have these kinds of payments, we can't ever member of staff on a team leader salary, so you're talking low 30,000.

who has a pension strain in excess of 100,000 pounds, some middle managers, due to age and length of service are topping 200,000 pounds, but even in these situations, if it's a true redundancy such as he had once been working on in in in recent months, Councillor wouldn't have any choice whether to pay that exit package if the particular officer scored lowest in any redundancy selection criteria.

we're not suggesting that Council shouldn't be informed of the payments and you will see an additional sentence at the bottom of paragraph 47, where we're proposing for transparency that a report will still be submitted to Council to note the payment, so there is an awareness and it's certainly not being taken away from Council to actually see those payments again perhaps say questions.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:17:42

angina so registered, just to confirm to the only changes to to the policy which was broadly agreed is.

but you've put in read in the tracked changes in sort of 47, section 47 Councillor Kane.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:18:09

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:18:12

the other any other Councillors, thus I mean obviously can.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:18:17

myself, I mean, you know, we are where we are legally utterly so, but I think that you know it's still right that the Council should be have sought IMF reports, I believe, even if it is just to to note that the figures Councillor Hollingbery,

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:18:29

it's exactly what I was going to say, I think it's really important that the Council are notified.

of these amounts I I accept what's what's put in the report, but I do think it's important that the Council are aware

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:18:45

so again, this will, this will have to go back to full Council, will it took four for approval now that has been slightly amended, it

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:18:52

didn't make it in the first place, because from January meeting it would have gone to wait for anyway, so Deputy this version that you'll see for the April Council.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:19:00

so we will be happy to work to note the recommendations.

CA proposed Councillor Kane, seconded, Councillor Martin, and all in favour, then we get out OK.

and then.

5 Pay Award 2024/25

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:19:16

last item, which is just a verbal update on the pay awards Alexandria,

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:19:23

thank you yes, I think everyone, with the exception of Mrs. O'Connor, is it JCP, it's a notice to cut the conversation that took place vote for the pay negotiations.

we started on 1,800 or 3%

whichever is the greater we had quite a college conversation with the union reps and the staff reps, we had the regional Unison rep there,

they agreed that their pay claim was was submitted on what was going to come through as the national pay claim, and then went on to very clearly tell us that they will be aware of other councils that were settling for the kind of around the five, five and a half or plus.

Mark in terms of pay awards

they also made reference to what year on year, real-time reduction in salary that you often hear about in the news and took the line, basically that with RPI at the time being, 5.2% and what they wanted to do was to have an offer in that region and they'd find it hard to take it back to their committee to recommend acceptance if we didn't meet that kind of level. So it is a very slight German at that point and we came back with the revised offer, which was the limit that this committee gave us of the 1,500 or 5% which they agree to go out and discuss with the Committee and subsequently said yes, take it to the vote

since the negotiations started, several other authorities have come forward now with with their pay awards, so we now know Medway were at 5%.

finally, at 5.00.7 5, which we knew Tunbridge 1900 on every salary point, or 5%, on management grades actually been either 5% Swale 5%, and the 34 hour working week plus a commitment to the real living wage may Stein at 5% and Tunbridge Wells at 5%, so it bears out what what we've been seeing and what what we could start to see happening.

so through the ballot we have to run two separate ballots bonkers, staffing on in the union and Unison run the one for them, but in total, as you have seen from the e-mail I sent round a couple of weeks ago, combined votes was 328 and out of 440 staff which is about that usual slightly better than normal but around the usual kind of benchmark or 93% of those who voted accepted the pay offer.

so the request today, it really is quite simply that the Committee note the outcome of the negotiations and will be implementing that on

Cllr Nicola Keen - 0:21:53

the 1st of April contributed to the reunion, never to come back to you about that mileage rate because I bought up the if we paid that mileage rate that would be a tax implication to our staff did they ever come back to you and explain their rationale what than that?

Les

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:22:07

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:22:14

and any other Councillors have anything to add, Ms princelings been

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:22:19

better, say something I I, I think that's great, I think it will it worked really well and I think that's the sensible way forward, do we know what the additional costs will be and I know it was in as contingency anyway but what was the additional cost?

in terms of all of that, because well, you know that works are only

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:22:48

interested in cost, so if I remember rightly, we was 7,760 thousand in

Cllr Jennifer Hollingsbee - 0:22:55

total, yeah right, we might have got it on the day, but that we'd it wasn't him in public.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:23:03

obviously, fully budgeted for and and its action, there is naturally.

pretty much if, if I may, Members would like us to just so that we give you a inaccurate figure, we could include it in the minutes of the specific figure. Let's take your point when we had the debate earlier on, it was in private session while we were agreeing on negotiating position now it's all been agreed and it is budgeted. If we just ask Gemma to make sure that we get the actual figure in the minutes for you if Members would prefer their efforts.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:23:39

and money aside. I just wanted to mention the the the birthday day, which is obviously something we discussed, and I was quite pleased when I was looking at the the N J C sort of national claim that they put in that they would like a special day or a birthday day in their claim, so we were, it was quite good to see that we were quite ahead of the curve in the thinking of that and then that's something. That's there's tripping push nationally as well so

that's very good

yet, Councillor Keith is absolutely right and I have to say.

the reaction has been very positive, very positive with staff, and I'm sure that helped with the the the response that Andrew and I read out to you, but yes, the the the comments have been made to me, certainly around the office of the staff were very grateful and appreciative of that. Thank you

Cllr Elaine Martin - 0:24:31

Councillor mum and I just wanted to say I was really pleased with the way it was structured with a percentage and a set amount so that it reduced that difference between lower and higher paid employees.

Ms Andrina Smith - 0:24:42

just for the minute, is Gemma 725,000, thank you doorstep.

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:24:54

Cllr Connor McConville - 0:25:02

so that's everything preserved for this afternoon, so thank you for attending

and have a enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

Personnel Committee - Tuesday 12 March 2024, 2:00pm - Feedback Tab - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting