Overview and Scrutiny Committee - Tuesday 27 May 2025, 6:00pm - Slides Tab - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting

Overview and Scrutiny Committee
Tuesday, 27th May 2025 at 6:00pm 

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  1. Mr Jake Hamilton
  2. Slide 1
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  1. Cllr Laura Davison
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  5. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
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  4. Councillor Tony Hills
  5. Mr Jake Hamilton
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  7. Cllr Laura Davison
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  9. Cllr Laura Davison
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  6. Cllr Laura Davison
  7. Cllr Gary Fuller
  8. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  9. Cllr John Wing
  10. Cllr Gary Fuller
  11. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  12. Councillor Tony Hills
  13. Cllr Gary Fuller
  14. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
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  2. Cllr Polly Blakemore
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  4. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
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  6. Councillor Tony Hills
  7. Cllr Polly Blakemore
  8. Andrew Rush
  9. Councillor Tony Hills
  10. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  11. Cllr Rich Holgate
  12. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  13. Scott Butler
  14. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  15. Cllr Bridget Chapman
  16. Cllr Polly Blakemore
  17. Andrew Rush
  18. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  19. Cllr Rich Holgate
  20. Andrew Rush
  21. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  22. Cllr Laura Davison
  23. Cllr Polly Blakemore
  24. Andrew Rush
  25. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  26. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  27. Cllr Laura Davison
  28. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  29. Cllr John Wing
  30. Scott Butler
  31. Scott Butler
  32. Cllr John Wing
  33. Andrew Rush
  34. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  35. Cllr Laura Davison
  36. Cllr Polly Blakemore
  37. Andrew Rush
  38. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  39. Andrew Rush
  40. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  41. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  42. Slide 2
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  12. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  13. Cllr Bridget Chapman
  14. Mr Rod Lean
  15. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  16. Cllr Alan Martin
  17. Mr Rod Lean
  18. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  19. Cllr Alan Martin
  20. Mr Rod Lean
  21. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  22. Cllr Laura Davison
  23. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  24. Mr Rod Lean
  25. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  26. Councillor Tony Hills
  27. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  28. Cllr Rich Holgate
  29. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  30. Cllr Laura Davison
  31. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  32. Cllr Alan Martin
  33. Mr Rod Lean
  34. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  35. Cllr Laura Davison
  36. Mr Rod Lean
  37. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  38. Cllr Laura Davison
  39. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  40. Mr Rod Lean
  41. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  42. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  43. Cllr John Wing
  44. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  45. Slide 13
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  50. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  51. Slide 18
  52. Slide 19
  53. Slide 20
  54. Slide 21
  55. Mr Jake Hamilton
  56. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
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  1. Mr Rod Lean
  2. Slide 22
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  22. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  23. Mr Rod Lean
  24. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  25. Cllr John Wing
  26. Mr Rod Lean
  27. Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
  28. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  29. Councillor Tony Hills
  30. Dr Susan Priest
  31. Mr Ewan Green
  32. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  33. Councillor Tony Hills
  34. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  35. Cllr Bridget Chapman
  36. Mr Rod Lean
  37. Cllr Bridget Chapman
  38. Mr Rod Lean
  39. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  40. Cllr Rich Holgate
  41. Mr Rod Lean
  42. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  43. Cllr Alan Martin
  44. Mr Rod Lean
  45. Cllr Alan Martin
  46. Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
  47. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  48. Cllr Laura Davison
  49. Mr Rod Lean
  50. Mr Andy Blaszkowicz
  51. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  52. Mr Ewan Green
  53. Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
  54. Slide 42
  55. Slide 43
  56. Slide 44
  57. Webcast Finished
Slide selection

Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:00:03
Good evening and welcome to the first meeting of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee.
This meeting will be webcast live to the internet.
For those who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you will need to leave the chamber.
For members, officers and others speaking at the meeting, it is important that microphones
are used so viewers on the webcast and others in the room may hear you.
Would anyone with a mobile phone please switch it to silent mode as they can be distracting.
I'd like to remind members that although we all have strong opinions on matters under
consideration it is important to treat members, officers and public speakers with respect.
That being said we'll move on to item 1 which is election of chair.

1 Election of Chair

Do we have any nominations?
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:00:55
I'd like to nominate Councillor O 'Cuffield Kelly.
Do we have a seconder?
Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:01:01
Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:01:06
And do we have any other nominations?
Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:01:11
Can I have a show of hands for electing Councillor Kofi Kelly?
Great, thank you. You're elected.
This is a blast from the past for me.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:01:58
Okay then, thank you.

2 Election of Vice Chair

So we move on to the next item, which is election of vice chair.
Do we have any nominations?
Yes, Councillor Martin.
Thank you, Chair. I want to say we have nominations there.
Thank you.
Thank you. Do we have a seconder?
Thank you, Councillor Davison.
And can we have a vote on that, please?
Okay, excellent.
Congratulations, Councillor Wing.
Okay, so we move on to the next item, which
is apologies for absence. Mr Hamilton, do we have any apologies? Thank
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:03:18
you. Right, we
move on to item number four, declarations of interest. Are there any members who have
interest to declare.
Yes, Councillor Hills.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:03:36
I wasn't indicating to speak, Chair.
Councillor Tony Hills - 0:03:54
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:03:54
Chair. Thank you. OK then we'll move on then.
OK, next item is to accept the minutes.
Of the meeting from the 22nd of April 2025.
Can we have a vote on?
If we accept those meeting minutes. Agreed OK.
Do I have the minutes to sign?
Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:04:26
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:04:52
We move on to appointment of members and election of chair to the Finance and Performance
Scrutiny Subcommittee. So we'll start with the election of a chair. Do we have a proposer?
Councillor Davis.
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:05:08
Sorry, chair, just before we move to that, I think there's an amendment to the individuals
who are listed as being on the Finance and Performance Subcommittee. I think I'm going
and you're going to go on to the committee.
So probably we should do that bit
before we elect from that group.
Thank you.
OK, that's fine.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:05:28
OK then, so could we have,
I'm just looking through myself.
Are there any changes to the list that we need to note?
I think that's the only one, so.
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:05:55
Just removing myself and adding you instead.
So can I ask if everyone is in agreement with that?
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:06:04
Thank you very much.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:06:08
So we move on to identifying who's going to be the chair.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:06:21
can we have a proposal? Yes, Councillor Wynd. Propose yourself. To be the chair of the…
Right, okay then. Do we have a second? Councillor Davidson. Seconded.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:06:30
Okay, fine. I seem to
be signed up for everything at the moment. That's fine. Okay. And can we have a vote?
Agreed. Okay. Thank you.

3 Apologies for Absence

4 Declarations of Interest

5 Minutes

6 Appointment of members and election of Chair to the Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:06:59
We move on to Item 7, Cabinet Member Updates.

7 Cabinet Member updates

In accordance with Constitution Councillor Gary Filler, the Cabinet Member for Resident
Engagement and Accountability, will be present to provide a committee with his Cabinet Member
update. Councillor Fuller, thank you.
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:07:21
Thank you, Chair. I'll just be brief on this one. I emailed all of the committee members
a sort of written update today. Sorry it was so late. But I suppose the key takeaways from
that particular document is we've reached the My Account target of 80 % take up and we're
looking at how we improve that as a service. We are now reaching the main KPIs for the
information governance side of things across the board, so it's now a case of monitoring
that and making sure that it stays there. We've also delivered the Councillor intranet
The main thing with that will be making sure that it provides what councillors need in
terms of services.
The other key area of consideration in terms of cyber security is that touch wood so far
we haven't suffered any major attacks that have breached our defences but we continue
to monitor that and that we will inevitably be at our game.
So, I'll leave it to the councillors for questions, I guess.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:08:37
Thank you, Councillor Fuller. Any questions?
Councillor Holgate.
Just one for me, it's curiosity.
Cllr Rich Holgate - 0:08:44
I'm mindful of drinking the Kool -Aid,
but there's obviously a big AI push in the world,
and I work in tech, so it's a lot of my day job,
but I'm just curious whether exploring anything,
or giving LGR other things,
it's probably no longer priority which I understand too.
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:09:03
There are currently a couple of areas where we are looking at AI.
One is in terms of staff, so the council uses Microsoft as a service provider and as part
of that we have access to various co -pilot features that allow us to enhance search in
edge, get documents, or this kind of thing.
So we're looking at how we can ensure that staff are able to use that effectively to assist them.
On the customer facing side of things as well, the company that provides our content management system also provides an AI service that effectively is an enhanced search, as I understand it.
So we're exploring the cost and benefit of that
as a potential addition to what we already have.
The key thing, I suppose the most important thing to mention,
and I'll mention in the document I think,
is that anywhere we're looking at AI
it's not as a replacement for services,
it's as an enhancement to support people
in even using those services or providing those services.
Thank you, any other questions?
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:10:13
Yes, Councillor Davison.
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:10:18
Hiya, thanks. In terms of the customer access strategy,
which is still being reviewed,
can you give us any sort of indications
of what's come from the public consultation,
where that's got to?
So this will just be broad brush strokes
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:10:35
because I haven't had a detailed meeting on the responses yet.
but effectively
around seventy percent of respondents were
happy with
where we are in terms of
customer support
there are various
points made about
things being easy to achieve online but there are also
counter points about individuals wanting
alternatives to
accessing services online
I hope to have a more detailed review once I've met with the customer service manager
to get the full details.
Thank you.
Any further questions?
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:11:20
OK.
Yes, Councillor Winkle.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr John Wing - 0:11:27
First of all, well done for the percentage of hitting the KP points.
I'm sure you're aware of this, the digital challenge in our community.
I'm sure you... they're not forgotten. I know they're not.
You did talk about in that email you sent through earlier on,
about the forms and there was some problem with the forms
and getting people to use the forms rather than ringing up or emailing officers.
Using the online forms as a quicker purpose.
I mean, what sort of ideas do you have to encourage people to use forms
rather than you madly opening up customer services?
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:12:07
So we're kind of working on that already, effectively
there's two elements to that
one there's
there are some people that are finding it an issue that they have to log into My Account
prior to completing the form
so we're exploring the possibility of making My Account more of a
almost like an auto -complete
kind of service
So you start to fill out a form and effectively this would be quicker if you logged into your My Account
rather than you must log into your My Account to complete this.
So that's one area we're looking at.
The other area is just about making the forms more readily available, making them easier to use,
that kind of thing more accessible.
We have seen movement, there are more people moving towards using the forms
and it's more about maintaining that direction of travel in the future.
The key aim behind that is that where people can carry out straightforward activity
or straightforward interactions with forms, it frees up more time for officers to work on more complex cases.
So that's the underlying aim of it all.
Thank you. Any other questions? Yes, Councillor Hills.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:13:25
Councillor Tony Hills - 0:13:28
Thank you, Chair. Thanks for your report. Just following on from what Councillor Wing
is saying, in my area we have lots of people who actually can't use a computer. That's
why the phone calls, phone numbers are so important. And how you circulate any updates.
can I suggest that you send to the parish councils,
not simply a case of information, but they can put it on their websites,
because a lot of people who can use a computer just will go on their website to get the information.
So the broadest bit of that might be more useful. Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Hills.
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:14:05
And I must admit, as a parish counsellor myself, I do get a lot of emails from my parish grant
that have been, that are information that's been passed on by the district council
so we're definitely already doing that but I mean it can certainly continue to improve
and we can find better ways of doing it. Simple things like encouraging the parish clerks
not just to send it to their councils but put it on their websites as well
which could be one small improvement. But also there's opportunities in terms of
Because parish clerks are a contact point for a lot of people, especially people that maybe aren't IT savvy per se,
giving them more information about how they can support members of the public is in itself a real positive.
For example, obviously in Sandgate we run the library so we already have people coming in to use IT there.
So the more knowledge that the parish clerk has about how the systems at the council work,
the more help they can be to members of the public
coming into the library.
Yes, Councillor Davidson.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:15:12
Thank you. It was interesting what you were saying
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:15:18
about my account and how it might evolve from here.
I'd certainly welcome anything that removes barriers
to people being able to report things, as you were saying.
Are you looking at any other mechanisms
for those kinds of ways of reporting things,
or is my account, or the unbarried version of my account
going to be the way that people would still do that, principally?
I think principally in terms of reporting things
Cllr Gary Fuller - 0:15:51
and interacting with the council,
forms are definitely going to become the preferred option
in terms of what I'd call sort of straightforward interactions as it were
because there's a certain amount that goes on in the background that creates
a lot of cases
in Salesforce which is our sort of underlying system and there's a lot of
automation that you can do there that makes it a lot easier for officers to deal with requests and so on
So that would certainly be the default but to be honest no option is off the table if
it is something we can do that will make it better for residents to interact with the
council.
Thank you.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:16:41
Right, moving on then.
If there are no more questions.
Thank you.

8 New Dog Control Public Spaces Protection Order - Public Consultation

So item 8, new dog control public space protection order which is going to be introduced by the
officers. Thank you. Actually I'll introduce that for you Chair. Thank you very much Councillor.
Cllr Polly Blakemore - 0:17:02
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:17:02
And good evening Members. So the Council has enforced two public space protection orders.
Cllr Polly Blakemore - 0:17:10
I'll call them PSPOs because it's just less of a mouthful as we go through. Both of which
expire this year. The first deals with general antisocial behaviour and that was reported
to you for your comments as part of the public scrutiny exercise last month. The second is
this one which deals with dog control and it's due to expire in July and the new draft
order has been published for public consultation and is now open for comments. This new draft
order is also being reported here to you tonight for any feedback to be included in the consultation.
From our experience it is this one that attracts the greater public interest of the two PSPOs
as we have strong opinions expressed both for and against the measures.
There are three levels of restriction.
The first is a district -wide general ban against dog fouling
or failing to clean up after your dog.
The second is dogs on leads.
That usually applies to parks, open spaces and cemeteries.
And the third is dog bans, which are generally to spaces
like children's play areas or seasonal,
such as the beach areas or certain beach areas.
So for this new version of the Dog Control PSPO there have been very few changes but
I would just draw your attention to three proposed amendments that may be of interest.
So firstly the extension of the Dogs on Leeds area in the Lower Leeds Coastal Park to prevent
dogs in the play area there and also to protect the planted area of the park.
Secondly the designation of a dog friendly area around the amphitheatre and below the
Cliff Hall and thirdly Dogs on Leeds in the stadium area of Aldridge Road and in
Le Quesnay North Road around the Shonkith Estate. Our residents continue to
express grave concerns about dog fouling but beyond these new proposals there's
no brownswell of opinion in favour of a range of new restrictions being
introduced. So a continuation of the current restrictions will build on the
existing public awareness of when and where restrictions apply and setting up
the Dog Control PSPO the intention is to improve our public spaces, not to catch out dog owners
with new restrictions.
So it's intended that public information and education campaigns continue to promote awareness
of restrictions and encourage responsible dog ownership. So as I say the new draft order
is out to public consultation and I'd welcome any comments the committee wishes to make
for inclusion in that consultation and happy to take any questions that either myself or
for getting into the detail.
Scott or Andrew will be happy to answer.
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Councillor.
Any questions?
It's now open for debate.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:19:54
Yes, Councillor Hill.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:19:57
Thank you, Chair.
Councillor Tony Hills - 0:20:01
Yeah, I'm pretty pleased to see that you're lifting
the restriction at Greystone Beach.
It's always been confusing.
When it was a holiday camp down there,
park results, it still is technically, it's more residential than holiday so it did
confuse a lot of visitors and if the police should bring the big ones who aren't actually
positioned correctly, then they're seen very easily. So I thought it was a step forward but
you might want to think about changing some of the times maybe at Liddlestone.
Only so much we have a problem with seawater quality and dogs on the beach
don't help. So I want to think about it for a few weeks or so.
That is something that we have considered. I'll hand over to Scott to go over the detail.
Cllr Polly Blakemore - 0:20:54
But yeah, the dogs on beaches was a consideration as part of the whole water quality issue.
But I'm glad you're pleased about Great Stone because you're right, it didn't make a great deal of sense
and was also very difficult to enforce. So it was a sensible way forward.
Are you able to take over there?
If I can, I was actually just going to ask, what times would you suggest?
Andrew Rush - 0:21:18
Councillor Tony Hills - 0:21:20
The actual beach water quality monitoring starts from the beginning of May,
but I'd actually bring it forward a couple of weeks
so we actually get some clean water into the system before it starts that.
It's just a consideration.
It's another problem we could have because the currents,
as I'm sure you know there, Longshore Drift runs south to north
and anything from that beach will end up going down towards Dimchurch.
Thank you. So you're suggesting that we bring it forward to some time in April,
not later in the day?
Yes.
We can note that.
Councillor Holgate.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:21:56
Thank you. I was just curious,
Cllr Rich Holgate - 0:21:58
the restrictions are changing...
I'll crumble just on my page.
On the appendix 3, we're removing the dogs on lead restriction on the centre footpaths on South Road as not enforceable.
I was curious why they're not enforceable because we're putting the same restrictions in place on North Road and the Lower East Coastal Park.
So what was not enforceable about South Road that made it enforceable on the other two? Excuse.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:22:40
Yes, can you stop?
Thank you chair, thank you councillor.
Scott Butler - 0:22:45
The south road restrictions are particularly difficult to enforce because you've got open
spaces either side of an open pathway and therefore it's difficult for the owners, let
alone the dogs, to know they need to be on the leave when crossing between one and the
other.
Thank you.
Councillor Chapman.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:23:06
Cllr Bridget Chapman - 0:23:10
I don't know if it's covering this area but in Harbour Ward,
one of the things I get a lot of correspondence about is dog mess.
And it's getting worse. It's really, really getting bad around Dover Road,
Harvey Street, Harbour Way.
People aren't supposed to do it but I don't see any disincentive for them
to, apart from public people commenting, if they are brave enough to do it to people's faces,
what can we do to stop people from doing it or to at least bring the level down? Because it's getting,
you can't walk, and in the winter when it's dark it's like potluck as if you're going to get home
without tread stuff all through your house.
Yes, Catherine.
I'll make a start and then probably hand over.
Cllr Polly Blakemore - 0:24:10
Yeah, what can we do is the big question.
It's a really tricky one to enforce
because you have to see the act taking place
of not being cleared up in order to enforce it.
So it's sort of having an enforcement officer
in every street corner.
It's really hard and a lot of having dogs on leads is about, we know, that fouling is less of an issue when dogs are on a lead
because people get distracted and their dogs often need their phone, having a chat with their friends and that's when a lot of that happens.
But I'm going to hand over to either Scott or Andrew to see if they have a magic wand for other things.
I don't expect they have, otherwise they've already abused it.
I was just going to add that there are various fines, and we do fine for dog fowl and when we get it,
Andrew Rush - 0:24:56
but you know, you have to, if they see our officer and then they still dog fowl, it's rare, it can be
quite rare to get the fowling. I think prior to the pandemic, I think we've all seen a society change,
we've seen a lot more people using bags. I think since the pandemic, we've certainly seen a spike
and making it, sitting in the seat
from a street cleansing point of view.
But what we're trying to do with this order
is to look at it comprehensively.
Yes, dog fowling is banned across the district -wide,
but actually try and put in restrictions
so that we can sort of repeat those restrictions
so we create a knowledge and a back -up
and try and get that societal change again
so that if you're conscious that you need to keep your dog
and leave in certain areas.
And if you're walking up Dover Road,
which I know very well,
you know it's not right in the park,
it's not right in Dover Road as well.
But I say it's a difficult problem.
Council Holgate.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:26:04
Cllr Rich Holgate - 0:26:06
I was just curious, the stats from 2023 are all in decline,
which I would suggest the PSPOs are working,
or we can't get out as much as we were able to.
Is it as simple as one or the other or a combination?
Sorry, just beg my pardon, my PC stopped.
Andrew Rush - 0:26:29
I think also the team have got to work on things like fly -clipping as well.
and we've seen an increase in that.
So we are patrolling as much as we can.
It takes a while.
I think because some of the restrictions are becoming more embedded,
we are seeing some less offences than some persons.
But thank you, I forgive Scott.
But it is difficult to catch, particularly for fouling.
But the team are patrolling as much as they pretty much were
back in the previous days.
Thank you. Councillor Davison.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:27:13
Yeah, thank you.
So just going alongside that conversation,
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:27:18
are we also looking at things like bins
and making sure that there are sufficient bins for people
and people are clear about disposal as part of that?
And where we are looking at changes or increased restrictions
like in the Lower Lees Park,
are we rejigging the enforcement there to take account of that?
I think you talked about a dog -friendly area,
but that's an existing area, not a change in that sense.
There isn't a restriction there at the moment in that bit.
The restriction is going to be around that, but that section remains as is.
Cllr Polly Blakemore - 0:27:58
Yes, that isn't a change.
The idea is that becomes the focus of where people want to have their dog off the lead.
I'll let Scott talk more about the actual enforcement of that.
In terms of bins, I think most people are aware now
that any bin can take dog poo.
We don't have specific dog poo bins,
so any bin can take it,
but maybe we can be clear on that message
when we go to the publicity as well.
Yes, please go ahead.
Thank you, Councillor Davidson.
Andrew Rush - 0:28:32
We have over 1 ,000 bins
and we do have still some dog fouling bins.
We're trying to phase those out because they're not pleasant.
But you can use all bins for dog fouling
and we have to encourage it.
But as I say, with 1 ,000 bins,
you're not too far from a bin in most places,
particularly there's about 400 of them around the seafront coastal area.
So, yes, perhaps more messaging on that,
but I think we've got quite a few bins already.
I think a good point to make about the coastal park
is that we are actually in the process of employing
two additional enforcement officers,
and I think that's really important to go across
because that's actually backing up.
We are specifically looking to use them in the parks.
They're gonna be very busy over the summer,
but in the winter then they can go to those cemeteries
and other public areas which also can be hotspots at the same time.
So there is a commitment and we are trying to enforce
on a much more active basis than even before
as recognition of some of the problems we've got.
Thank you.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:29:47
Yes, Councillor Davidson.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:29:49
I just wanted to come back to say that's really good news to hear
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:29:53
and I'm sure residents will have lots of suggestions
as to places where they could go,
because it's clearly a serious problem in several areas, so thanks.
Yes, Councillor Wynn.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:30:08
Talking about the Coastal Park,
Cllr John Wing - 0:30:10
I'm just wondering about this designated dog -friendly round the amphitheatre
and the lower Linsciff Hall.
I'm slightly concerned because the amphitheatre is used,
which I've seen used for school holidays, they have pirate displays there,
and in the summer they have poetry and things being read from there.
And on the map it doesn't include what we call the Wild Zone,
all to the west, the Sanga End of the Lowleys.
Is that still going to be just open?
Is that still being allowed to use dogs off lead in that area?
To the west, the Sanga End of the Lowleys.
Scott Butler - 0:30:51
Thank you for the question.
Scott Butler - 0:30:55
The coastal park we're adding restricted areas in and around the children's play area.
So at the moment there's a children's, there's a dog ban in the children's play area but
dogs are still ended up in the sand play pits so therefore we're extending the dogs on the
restriction there.
We've also, as request from the grounds maintenance team, added the restricted area around the
and the botanical area, the planting.
So as to not, it was a suggestion of theirs that we make the whole thing dogs on leads.
That was challenged and this is sort of a compromise.
So the section in the middle, the amphitheater section is going to be more dog friendly as
in that is an area that dogs can be off the lead.
and then the section to the west of the children's play area
that isn't marked on the map, that will then be dogs free to roam.
We're not highlighting it green on the map anymore
because we're making the whole district dog friendly,
unless there's a restriction.
Does that help?
I'm just concerned there may be some conflict
Cllr John Wing - 0:32:06
when the amphitheatre has been used by people saying,
well, this is a dog friendly area, we're allowed to run our dogs in,
I can just imagine it being a slight problem if we've got that large area to the west of.
And also, I mean I know the area quite well, dogs can sort of run into the pay area from the amphitheatre,
where on the other area, on the road there is a fence.
I know the gates normally open, sometimes open, there's a physical gate fence there across the road
where you could put signs on past this point.
I was just wondering whether it could cause problems.
I could see it being probably be
amplified to still be news.
I think it's a good comment and I think
Andrew Rush - 0:32:45
this is the purpose of this meeting
tonight is to get your comments from
this committee and will certainly
add that into consultation.
Yes, Councilor Davidson.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:32:57
Yeah, just just following up on that.
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:33:00
Could there be a risk that there's
a kind of concentration in that
area of dogs not on leaves because
because the other areas are dogs on leads.
You said it had been challenged as an idea,
having the whole area as dogs on leads.
I don't know if you can go into more details
about what you mean by challenged.
I'm just wondering what comments have come through
in the public consultation so far.
Do we have a sense of that?
I haven't seen the public consultation so far.
Cllr Polly Blakemore - 0:33:25
I don't know if you have, Andrew, to let you answer.
We have to date about 77...
Andrew Rush - 0:33:34
There was a full survey and 12 e -mails.
Some of these issues are still coming up.
We expect we'll probably have it.
Last time we did this, we had comments in around 400, 600 range.
We didn't post e -mails.
When we put together the order,
we've been understanding how it may land with the public.
We've been putting proposals forward and revising them.
So we've tried to get together an order which I think we're trying to build a consensus around the order.
I think is the way to look at it.
So that's what we meant by challenge.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:34:18
Anybody else? Any other comments?
In regards to dog walkers, I've had some comments from people about perhaps allowing them to walk their dogs between 9 and 7 .30.
on the beaches, is that a possibility?
Andrew Rush - 0:34:39
The beach ban applies to certain beaches
when they're listed, so it would depend
about which beaches in particular they're talking about.
I would obviously make the comment tonight and we can note it,
but I would suggest that they could individually come back
in the consultation process online or e -mail
so we can know specifically which area they're talking about,
then we can review it.
So they've told me the sandy beaches.
The sunny sands.
Yes.
Sunny sands.
Dogs on leaves.
Dogs on leaves.
That's something that can be noted.
That's something to be noted.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:35:19
Any other comments?
OK.
Right, so.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:35:56
Okay, thank you for your comments.
Thank you, Councillor Blakemore.
OK, we move on to our next item then.
FOCA 1 update and proposal disposal strategy.
Thank you.

9 Folca 1 - Update and Proposed Disposal Strategy

Thank you, Chair.
Mr Rod Lean - 0:36:21
So I'm going to just talk about FOLKA 1 and also FOLKA 2.
FOLKA, and this is as a result of the cabinet's recommendation back in July 24 when we were
asked to investigate options for FOLKA 1 in terms of the news that the medical centre
was no longer able to go in there.
So a bit of background.
So FOCA 1 was kind of identified for the medical centre back in September 2021.
We had a Pelling's who were commissioned and they did a condition survey on the building
back in 2023 in August.
The NHS confirmed through their GP project team that unfortunately the medical centre was not viable in FOLKA 1
and as a result of that, as I mentioned, the cabinet agreed that we would explore alternative options for FOLKA 1
and that's what we're going to present now.
and Colliers also surveyed, we commissioned Colliers to look into all the different options
that we could explore as part of this exercise.
So this will be forming into a Cabinet Report which will go to Members in June, later on
this year and it considers the options for FOCAL 1 and the recommended option is Disposal
and it sets out the financial contributions the disposal will have to the FOLKA2 project,
which I will come on to later on.
So the options explored are as follows.
We looked at the refurbishment as a mixed retail and office space, a refurbishment as
a mixed and residential, a refurbishment as a hotel, and then demolition and rebuild as
residential and then looked at selling via an auction, open market disposal and also
do nothing and mothball the building.
So looking at those different options there, the first three were the sort of re -development
or refurbishment as I mentioned so that would obviously involve quite a considerable development
So they looked at the development cost and then they looked at the value of the development
once it was built and how much we would get for that in the open market and that presented
a negative figure which is the return on investment figure there which you can't see here because
it's redacted but essentially all those first three items were all in negative territory.
We also looked at the net present value,
which looks at the cost of an asset to build
and then the potential income generation that would present.
And again, that's over a period of time
and that again presented negative figures for the council.
So we also looked at the demolition and rebuild
and again those costs came in at a high risk.
again, high development costs and then rebuilding as well and trying to recoup the money.
So again, for the council, that wasn't an option for us.
There's the option of selling and disposal was the next option which is to sell via auction
and again that, as you can see, there is a medium risk. Essentially you are limiting the market,
would then look to buy a property on auction because it's quite a fast process
and therefore you need to move quickly, therefore you would preclude certain people who may be interested in that building.
There was the open market disposal, which is a conventional way to sell a property,
and that was deemed as a lower risk and is part of the recommended auction.
And then mothballing the building as well, again that presented costs,
you have to make it watertight to stop it from becoming further degraded,
and also you need security, you've got standing charges on services etc.
So again, there's quite a lot of considerable cost dealing with that
and the only reason you do that generally is to see if the market would improve later on as well.
So looking at the sort of viability and risk summary,
as I mentioned earlier, most of the first three are high risk
and sorry, first four are high risk, which will involve quite a considerable amount of capital investment.
Selling via auction, as I mentioned, is a sort of a medium risk based on, as I mentioned earlier,
the speed with which auctions work and the narrowing of the market that may be interested in purchasing.
The open market was the lowest risk one of this, putting it on the open market and going down that route.
and then the mothballing and building
would be a sort of a high risk as well
for reasons of high cost,
but also reputation as well
because that building could be mothballed
for quite a considerable amount of time
and therefore would look a bit,
could be potentially seen as a bit of an eye sore,
but also there's a reparational issue there
for the council as well.
So looking at the sort of details of the risks
in more detail.
The development risks, as I mentioned, are all high.
So again, the perceived action for that
would be just to dispose of FOCA 1.
Again, if we were to build out those developments,
there's a lot of new building safety acts
that have come in as well, which again, just increases
the cost of development.
So again, the preventative action
is to dispose of FOCA 1.
The other action which we're all aware of as well
is the changeable interest rates at the moment.
It's quite a volatile market out there.
So again, the risk is high, and therefore, the recommendation
or perceived action would be to dispose of it.
The disposal, we've got around the capital receipt for FOCA2,
is the best outcome.
It's deemed low on likelihood and impact.
You've also got the disposal where
you've got the building capital expenditure there
in terms of the remedial works, again trying to get the red book appraisal of the building
to give us a realistic value on that building to ensure that that potentially is pitched
at the right level.
We're also looking at the not being able to dispose a focal one is also a risk in terms
of again having an unrealistic price and setting the price at the correct level.
Also the fact that the building could be there for a long time creates an eyesore as well.
So again that's kind of an issue for us.
Further dilapidation of the building if we were to do nothing, so mothball the building.
So again that's more money we'd have to spend.
So again disposal of FOLK 1 would be the option there.
Again the annual running costs and the reputational risk which I mentioned before.
So again, all roads lead to disposal of FOCA 1.
So the summary then of the options really,
the feasibility assessment, I think
it provides a clear direction really
of travel in terms of what we do with FOCA 1.
Any alternative development is significant financial risk
and puts some financial pressure on the council as well.
Mothballing it and retaining it, likewise,
there's a cost factor there that I think is prohibitive.
So the recommended option is to dispose of the property
on the open market and secure a capital receipt.
And that capital receipt will obviously
helps reduce the borrowing on the FOCA 2 project.
So the cabinet report recommendations
will be to note the report, to note the options considered
for FOCA 1, to agree the recommended
option for the disposal of option for one to note the impact of a disposal on
for two and the project and the business case and to agree to delegate authority
to dispose of the building in line with the recommended options.
So that's it in a nutshell really as to where we are with for one.
So any questions.
Council Chapman.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:45:09
Yeah, thank you for that.
What I don't understand is this, did the space requirements for a
Cllr Bridget Chapman - 0:45:17
health centre suddenly
change?
How did we not know that the space wouldn't work for a health centre?
Did the goalposts move or what's happened?
How did that come about?
Thank you, Councillor Chapman.
Mr Rod Lean - 0:45:39
Essentially, the goalposts did change in terms of the economy at the time.
It went through quite a volatile period from 2021 to where we are now.
High interest rates, the material costs, inflation, etc.
And as a result of that, the GP's development team just couldn't make it viable and stack up.
and I think also the ICB had certain requirements
in terms of what they could fund
and what they couldn't fund,
and I think as a combination,
I think it unfortunately made the situation unviable.
Thank you, Councillor Martin.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:46:22
Thank you, Chair.
I mean, looking at the cost -benefit analysis,
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:46:27
it leads you to quite a clear conclusion,
so I don't think there are too many people arguing
that disposing of the property makes sense.
Sort of questions that were on mine.
Mine though, curious to get your thoughts.
So anyone buying the property would presumably
have similar costs to us in terms of redevelopment
and remedial costs.
So I'm just curious in your thoughts
on how we set the value of the property
and how likely we think it is that we'll find
a willing purchaser because I think you've listed out
the main potential uses for the building and our cost benefit analysis seems to suggest
that none of them are particularly viable.
Thank you Councillor Martin.
Mr Rod Lean - 0:47:17
Yes I think the main difference is we're not a developer and the way we have to borrow
money is quite complex in terms of the Council's MRP so therefore it sort of prevents us from
being able to make things viable from our perspective.
We also obviously have other projects within the council as well with which we're currently
funding as well so that obviously puts pressure on the revenue budget.
But essentially I think what we've looked at is the building itself, pricing it at the
right or putting a reserve price at the right level and that's why I've done a bedbook appraisal
to ensure that we hopefully pitch it at a level that's attractive to a prospective developer.
Furthermore, I think with the developments that we potentially could do with Folka 2
and also with the levelling up funding that's happening as well around the outskirts of that building
I think hopefully that creates a bit of momentum.
If we are able to get a medical centre into Folka 2, which I'll talk about in a second
then obviously that creates a huge footfall
so it might potentially make it a more attractive proposition for a developer.
They have a very different way of funding projects and schemes than we do.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:48:32
Do you want to add more on that point?
Yes, that's a good idea.
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:48:38
I'm just curious then what sort of time scales we're hoping to see the sale within.
I guess the point around the...
I can't remember what were the costs of, so if we mothball it, there's certain costs of keeping hold of it
and we've got to make it waterproof. I guess the longer the sale drags on, we would need to perhaps take on some of those costs as well.
So interesting, I guess first question relates to the expected timescale of the sale and then if the sale drags on,
the extent to which we might end up picking up some of those mothballing costs.
Thank you, yes, it's a very good point.
Mr Rod Lean - 0:49:17
I've got no crystal ball to gaze into to see who might be interested in how long it will take.
We're estimating potentially a year to 18 months, it could be earlier than that.
The building itself, due to the way it's insured, we have to have a certain level of work
that we have to make sure that it's secure and meets various insurance requirements.
so therefore there is a bit of monitoring going on.
So there will be a continual sort of revenue requirement
for a period of time until it's sold.
But essentially the market, if we pitch it at the right level,
then hopefully we'll get a bite and then we can sort of move forward.
In terms of time scales, the climate is so volatile as well,
as you know out there, so depending on whether there's improvements there,
then we'll see.
But it's in a good location.
One of the aspects right in the town centre,
we've got a lot of work happening on the periphery of that particular site,
including Foulquat 2 as well, so hopefully that will make it an attractive proposition,
as I mentioned earlier. But it is a risk and I can't deny that.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:50:21
Go ahead, come through.
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:50:26
Thank you. I mean, it does feel a disappointing place to be
after such a long period of time, since the building was purchased
to now be at this place.
Obviously we haven't seen all the details
that are in the report and the analysis
in terms of the different options in detail,
but the way that the summary presents,
tends to suggest that the risk is a big focus,
and obviously any return on investment.
Clearly looking at what was paid for the site originally
and where it might get to,
people will obviously take a view on that
in the fullness of time when those things emerge.
But my questions would be around what kind of safeguards can there be
if it's sold around future uses, community benefit,
has that been thought about in assessing the viability of the different options?
At one point, it was suggested that it would be knocked down
and a medical centre built instead of using the building, but rebuilding it,
which clearly people didn't want to see that happen,
because the building is an iconic building in the town
and is a heritage asset.
So what kind of safeguards are there if it is sold
around things like that happening in the future
or what uses the building could be put to
that would have a community benefit?
Yes, I was going to ask a similar question
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:52:24
in that could you actually put conditions in the sale of the building in regards to its usage?
Because it's, as you said already, it's central. It's in the middle of town.
And if it's used for something which isn't really in keeping with the rest of the town,
or the fact that it is a heritage site and that's not taken into account as well,
that would also come back on the council because we're the people who would have sold it
to those people?
Mr Rod Lean - 0:52:57
Yes, thank you both for those questions.
I think it's very difficult to balancing that.
I think you'll appreciate because it's at the moment,
it's a building that is vacant, it's sort of derelict,
it's kind of going into disrepair.
So it's a balancing app that's been putting
too many conditions into a sale documentation
because you're gonna lower your price
that you could potentially get for it
because you're restricting the potential developer
from doing what they might want to do in that, be it adverse or something that's positive.
So I think there's a balancing act that we have to do, but I think by going through an
open market sale rather than an auction, for example, we've got more control over that
and we can sort of negotiate and discuss it with them and understand what they might propose
to do with that.
So I think that's the difficulty we have at the moment with that particular building.
I think it's trying to realise a capital receipt which is good for public money to be pumped back into the FOLKer II
but also trying to balance that we don't have a scar there because if we put too many conditions nobody buys it
we haven't got the money to develop it and therefore it could just sit there for a long time
and it would be a shame when you've got everything else looking quite nice around you with the levelling up
and potentially FOLKer II. So that's the balancing act but it's something that's very much to answer your question
and it is on our minds that we are very conscious of it.
It's just how we play that and how we balance that
between too many conditions on that.
Thank you.
Councillor Hills.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:54:27
Thank you, Chair.
Councillor Tony Hills - 0:54:32
Yeah, it's a problem, I suppose, of the wheel turns round
and what you want it to do is no longer possible
because the market's changed and things have moved on.
I can see that.
There might be some changes inside the NHS now
because they've got that extra funding,
they might be taking a different view from when they last look at it.
So I would expect I can keep having to use a conversation open
in case it fits what their current prospectus is.
But I would agree with you,
open market disposal is better than an auction
because we don't have to go and sell it.
If we don't think the market's right now, we could hold on.
And of course, we are looking forward to unitary councils, aren't we?
within two to three years.
So that could actually be an asset to going into those bargaining situations.
So there is opportunities there.
I understand it's a problem
and I think your solution is the right one in the short term
but I'll keep an open mind going forward.
Thank you.
Councillor Hall.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:55:37
Cllr Rich Holgate - 0:55:41
I've had the benefit of being a portfolio holder in the area for the last two years.
I was sort of mindful of when to chip in I think to the point around the length of time
it has taken to get to a point.
It is definitely, I don't want to use the word regrettable because I think when I first
stepped into portfolio holder in two years ago I think I asked to resolve FOCA in six
weeks I think I asked you in goodnight and to rise smiles across the room and now you
The reason why I mention that is because I'm very empathetic to the amount of effort it has taken to find answers from people such as the ICUB in providing us feedback as to what they want to do.
It has been blood from Stone in a lot of ways and so it has taken time but I think ultimately it's not a reflection of priority or the officers trying to get some of the answers together.
The heritage aspect of the building I'm sensitive to.
There's been a lot of conversations I've had with various heritage groups over the last two years
and I think we've got it like, it's just very difficult because it's not a designated heritage asset.
It is heritage through its age, not through necessarily some of its features,
which is conversation which we have gone round quite a lot on and how we look at conditions
that can protect the quality of that building I think is really important.
I think it is regrettable that we are at this point, but it is because all other options have been so thoroughly looked into, because we didn't want to get to this point.
That's kind of my observation. So yeah, it's just to add my insight from the last two years, and thanks to Rod and the team for looking at everything to avoid this sign.
Councilor Davis.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:57:30
Cllr Laura Davison - 0:57:34
Yeah, I in no way intended my comments about disappointing to be a reflection on any of
the officers work as I'm sure it has been incredibly difficult. It is just taking that
step back really from where we were in 2020 to where we are now as people might look at
it from from the outside and not know all the ins and outs of of what's happened. But
I mean the other part of it I suppose is public ideas and consultation around the site.
I think there was quite a lot of excitement when it was first acquired
in terms of what the building could be put to use as.
And obviously there was a process of consultation about the levelling up money
and what that might be used for and then Volcker was introduced into that
in terms of some money for repairs and things.
I don't think at any stage there has been a wider consultation with people
about the future of that building.
Correct me if I'm wrong in terms of ideas or inspiration
that people might have about it.
And I do feel slightly disappointed that...
I take your assurances that there are no other options
and that all the options that there are have been explored
and have been assessed and appear in this presentation
in summary form for us this evening.
But I do partly feel that,
are there other more positive, optimistic options
that could be out there for the building,
and how do we make that happen?
Maybe there is a way that we make that happen
through this process as well as through retaining it,
but I don't sense that we can really guarantee that.
You're talking about a balance to be struck,
so I suppose we'd have to work through that process
in terms of what could be done.
I think that's where the feeling of disappointment comes from, really.
Councillor Martin.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:59:36
Thank you. Just feeding off Laura there,
Cllr Alan Martin - 0:59:39
one of the questions I kept asking myself
when I was reading through these papers
is why we have Foulker 1 and Foulker 2.
I appreciate they're two separate buildings,
but it's always been one project.
When you reflect on what we believe to be possible under Foulker 2,
which is a mix of retail units
and other things alongside the NHS,
I guess listening to Laura then does raise the question in my mind
as to if we feel we can do some of those things within FOLKA2 while we can't within FOLKA1.
Mr Rod Lean - 1:00:24
Yeah again it's a good question. Being close to the project, obviously working on it,
there's two very different buildings. You've got one which is Edwardian style, it's kind of quite
small rooms, all different levels, different kind of construction, whereas you've got kind of a grid
system for the Art Deco one which lends itself to become much more malleable in terms of how we
use space and therefore as a result of that it's kind of a lesser cost for the council to
to do something in that one and try and make it viable than it is for the the Edwardian one and
I think that's that's kind of what it's come down to is literally the construction of both
auctions and sort of picking the one that's probably slightly easier for the council and the
the way we work.
Councillor Davis.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:01:09
Yeah, just picking up on that point.
Cllr Laura Davison - 1:01:13
So obviously I think it was quite early on
the idea of separating the buildings kind of came in
and the Medical Centre being only in one part.
But have we looked at keeping the buildings together
in that sense and a project that would go across
both of the parts of the building in one joined up way
and does that do anything around the viability of the project in the round?
Mr Rod Lean - 1:01:41
It's something that's part of a scenario.
We've done lots of scenarios on the whole proposition of FOLKA1 and FOLKA2.
FOLKA1, the way that emerged
and obviously the decision that was taken, it wasn't viable
for the medical practice to go in there,
kind of came in quite late on into the mix.
We were obviously working through what we were doing with FOLKID II,
we were quite forging ahead with that.
And therefore as a result of that we offered and kind of spoke to the ICB
to see whether we could get the medical centre into that building
to keep that project alive.
And I think as a result of that we kind of put...
because again just coming back to the construction
and the two different buildings,
the grid system was easier for us to kind of move forward on that basis.
rather than try and make something of the whole site.
So it was looked at, but I think because they're so different, the two sites,
and there was a slightly different condition as well for both of those sites,
I think it was easier just to concentrate on one with the project we had in mind.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:02:51
Do you want to add anything more?
I mean, it's a slightly separate point,
Cllr Laura Davison - 1:02:56
But in the earlier stages of this project,
the council had a town centre working group
that met fairly regularly and got updates
on the project and what was happening.
And it was quite a useful way of scrutinising
on a more regular basis how the project was moving forward.
It was discontinued, I can't remember when,
at some point, but I just wanted to flag it as something that might be useful to consider,
whether there would be a value in reconstituting that town centre working group.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:03:43
Would you like to make a comment?
Mr Rod Lean - 1:03:46
Thank you, I've noted that and will certainly consider that, thank you.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:03:50
OK, any other points?
Councillor Wing.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:03:54
Thank you. Just thinking back to when you were giving them...
Cllr John Wing - 1:03:57
It was a distinct difference between the different parts of the building.
When you walk from one more modern -look bit, you can tell exactly where you were.
You'd be like, I can't believe you've never gone through the old bit.
It was so awkward and so I can fully understand what you're saying.
When it goes to general market, obviously...
whoever it is the builder will be looking at flats, won't they?
getting their money back by selling flats, perhaps have a mixed venue,
perhaps some flats and some community space.
I mean, that would be the way forward for me.
And that's facing the town centre needs accommodation like flats.
It is lacking flats in the accommodation.
Anybody looking to rent somewhere knows how difficult it is
to find somewhere to rent at the moment, especially good quality flats.
So with the right bid, if we get the right contractor in there,
perhaps do a mix between flats and a bit of community space as well
and I think that's the best thing we can hope for to be honest.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:05:06
Thank you. Any other points? Okay.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:05:19
Yes, so there are two points that we're supposed to agree on but it sounds like from what we've
been discussing that I don't think people agree on at this point.
So to agree the recommendation option for disposal of focal one and to agree to delegate
authority dispose of the building in line with the
recommendation option. Yes.
Mr Jake Hamilton - 1:05:41
Apologies Chair, that's for Cabinet to resolve. So this
evening it's just a presentation for members.
So it's just for us to note for this evening. OK then.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:05:51
OK so we move on to item 10, FOCA 2.

10 Folca 2 - Update and Business Case

Mr Rod Lean - 1:06:01
Thank you Chair. So we're going to the other side of the
now, Fokker 2, hopefully slightly more optimistic.
So looking at the, again, the backgrounds,
you will know we required it in 2020.
We had a consultant to do some feasibility work.
And then we put in the successful Luff application,
which was the wider project.
And this is part of that, which is 2 .48 million.
We then commissioned architects to help
with designing and utilizing the space to help work up the business case.
We got approval back in July 2024 to explore FOCA2 for the Medical Center.
We then also did an econ appraisal as well.
We looked at that and what the impact of that would be at the local area but also the regional
area as well.
We also put a bid in this year for the public sector decarbonisation scheme,
which was successful, which was really good news.
And we've also put together some procurement strategies
for how we take this forward.
So again, an overview of the cabinet report that's coming forward,
and that should say July 2024,
which basically looks at the status of the medical centre,
Looks at the progress of the leveling up fund and how we get on with that.
Looks at the occupation strategy and what we plan to do with that and the business case
and then also the recommended option with the appended business case.
Looking at the Medical Centre update, so FOLK as we just talked about was deemed non -viable
and therefore that was looked at to see whether we could fit it into FOLK 2.
So we then looked and worked with the ICB or NHS and ICB to understand their processes
because we were looking to take that forward.
So and as part of that process we had to agree the area that would be used by the GP practices as well
which is really important for our financial modelling and viability assessment.
This is just a cross section really of the building and the blue there just highlights
where the Medical Centre would fit into the building which is on the first floor and it
would also take part of the second floor as well with the grounds and basement being that
mixed use sort of use which is kind of retail, office or leisure.
And you can see also there we're trying to retain that lovely staircase as well within the building.
So looking at the levelling up area, so the remedial works again as I mentioned earlier, 2 .2 million.
And that's funded by MHCLG as part of the wider levelling up programme.
Part of the work on that was really to look at weatherproofing the building to stop it from degrading any further.
to separate FOLKA 1 from FOLKA 2, so we create that delineation,
and to help facilitate the Phase 2, so that means basically any works that we can procure
to lay the foundations for the next phase of works. Again, that's all to be procured,
so until that's procured we won't know the actual cost on that, but we have done some
good work on that in terms of estimations. The programme, as you can see, looking to
tender between August and November looking to appoint the contracts and get
them mobilized during that sort of pre -Christmas period so from November to
December with them starting on site from January 26 with looking at a sort of a
26 week program but the ultimate deadline for us to spend this money is
actually March 27 so we've got a bit of flex within the program which is
encouraging.
So the public sector decarbonization scheme
was to basically reduce the direct carbon emissions.
The grant was approved for $1 .44 million.
And the scope really, as I mentioned,
is the low carbon heating system and the actual fabric
of the building proving the insulation, the windows,
et cetera, and improving the energy efficiencies.
The impact also on the FOCA 2 business case by having that 1 .44 million, that obviously reduces our borrowing,
which saves, as you can see, an interest there of 64 ,000 a year.
And the benefits you can see also, so the running costs going forward will hopefully save money as well,
estimated at 86 ,500.
So the occupation strategy really encompassed quite a myriad of different areas.
We got a consultant to review all the different options.
We had a socio -economic assessment carried out on it.
We also looked at the environmental assessment as well, which is part of that bit I just
spoke about.
The commercial review, so looking at what is the commercial market like out there at
what kind of rates can we get for rental
and which sectors are doing well.
The incorporation of the medical centre,
again that came quite late on in the development of this scheme,
so bringing that into the fold
and obviously doing the financial modelling
and the viability assessment
that all of those areas bring to the fore.
So a recommended option that we've come to conclude now
is to redevelop FOLKA 2 into a medical centre and with commercial units,
combining mixed use commercial with the medical centre,
so that could be leisure, that could be office,
so it's quite a flexible space that we're trying to create there.
The mixed use, as I mentioned, really will be on the grounds and first,
sorry, basement level, so the basement level probably kind of lends itself more to the
leisure, being without natural light etc.
The Medical Centre occupies on the first floor and part of the second floor and that's kind
of an area that kind of works again for the GEP practice as well and we've estimated the
whole cost for that scheme to be 13 .2 million.
And in sort of broad brush terms this is how that's funded so that's the levelling up works
and then the actual construction costs with the contingency there,
including the fees of another million, which comes to that 13 .2 million.
And again, so the make -up here of that budget, which is the 2 .2,
the 1 .4 from the DCARB scheme,
Folkestone and Hive pulling in 9 .6,
and that's again already been agreed as part of the median term capital plan.
and then if we get capital receipts as well for FOCA 1 and the Civic Centre
obviously that will go towards a funding of this.
So the Medical Centre sort of finance options, so we've been working with the NHS and the ICB
and they've got two models with which they've kind of funded practices in the past.
They've got the market rental option,
which is essentially a market rent,
which is agreed between them and ourselves,
and that's over a period of 50 years.
That's a lot of pressure on the revenue
budgets for a longer period of time,
but it's manageable and is a
break even position of 27 years.
You've got the section two contracts,
which is again something that the NHS
have used mainly around having capital money that they inject into it,
so this is they're looking at potentially how they can do this on a revenue basis.
This ensures full cost recovery for the Council,
so there's no sort of the debt that we incur,
they pay us back straight away as opposed to the other option above
where it's balanced up through the both sides as it were,
the commercial and the medical centre funding side.
But the beauty with the section two is that the breakeven
is obviously come down to six years which makes it an interesting proposition and the
payments cover finance costs until the full cost recovery and then after that period then
it's peppercorn rent so for example if they come into some money the NHS they can then
pay it off in a quicker time and after that time when they've got they owe no more money
essentially they we would then offer them the space at peppercorn rents so we wouldn't
get any income from that.
But that's all part of the appraisal process.
Both those options, I just hasten to add,
really is something the NHS are considering at the moment.
This is something that they have to go through
their own governance process as well,
so just to make that reference there.
The financial models here are of free options,
essentially, the two that I've just spoken about.
And then there's also a third option,
should the medical centre not come to fruition where we could go full mixed commercial.
And what we try to do is model it on the commercial essentially only being 50 %
occupied in the space that they take up. So again we try to keep it very conservative.
So the benefits of the recommended options, I won't go through them all here but obviously
it brings back the vacant building which I think is really important and gets some vibrancy back
into that town centre with the 23 ,000 registered patients as they come to the centre.
There's obviously the commercial space, creating commercial space as well in that centre.
Hopefully it'll bring a bit more life back into that area which has obviously had a lot
of multinationals kind of come to an end over the last few years.
And then there's obviously the economy as well.
So during the construction phase, you can see the numbers there,
fairly good numbers, both for the local economy and the wider economy.
And then when we get into the operating phase as well, again, that will continue.
So some reasonable numbers there.
The energy consumption, as I mentioned earlier,
saving is also something to note as well.
So the high level, the financial risk summary really
is just looking at the key risks to the programme.
Obviously, budget overrun, so finding things
that we weren't aware of within the building,
could then have as an impact on the viability.
So we're trying to de -risk that by doing
a lot of due diligence in terms of all the surveys we've
carried out, and trying to look at all the different scenarios
that potentially come up and put that
into our financial modelling.
We've also got a healthy contingency in there as well
of 10 % and should it come to a point where we still need to look at, say, cost cutting
then we look at value engineering as well, so changing the scope of what we do there.
The other, the one below now looks at the NHS and the rental agreements and securing,
is not secured until the lease agreement is signed.
Now, the way the NHS ICB work is that they want to see what the actual costs are.
So whilst you can agree in principle, kind of the rates and costs, until we get the actual
costs in from the tendering process, then they will not sign until that point there.
So there's a bit of cost, there's a bit of mitigation that we need to consider there
and that reflects in the risk below where we've got to do some design work as part of
that Reba stage four, which will encompass the medical center.
And we're trying to do it in a way that's 420 ,000.
You can see there, we can try and mitigate that
for trying to make it work should the medical center not
come to fruition as well.
But ultimately, there will be a little bit of abortive costs
there that we'll have to consider.
The NHS, we've spoken to them about it
to see whether they can contribute to it.
That's something that they will look into.
but that's something at this stage they can't promise.
And then obviously the big one is the global economy
which we've had a huge volatile period over the last five years
so again that could have an impact on the viability of the scheme.
So the next steps, we go to cabinet on the 11th June
and ideally we'd like to develop the scheme to read the stage 4 pending that authorization
and that will get the pack ready to go out to tender.
The design period is between June and July.
The tendering from July 26 to December 26
with the construction phase happening from January 27 through to June 28
and obviously that's kind of an estimation at the moment through the QS's
and various other architects etc that we've got on board at the moment that could change obviously contractors
and they have a different view on that but that's a good outlier for the programme.
So the conclusion really is there's three viable redevelopment options for FOLKA, the FOLKA building which is positive.
We've tried to model those at appropriate and have appropriate levels of contingency and the income levels that we're generating
as I mentioned earlier, are Conservatives,
so we're hoping that that would be a more positive figure.
We're also having a good relationship
with the NHS and the ICB to deliver this medical centre.
They're very keen to do it.
They have their own government processes to go through,
and we have no control over that as such.
So we're trying to work through the scheme
and continue the work with that in mind.
But hopefully, with their processes,
we can start to align and make sure we don't miss out or sort of reduce our time delivery
too much as we go through that but as I said that is slightly out of our hands because they are
they have their own government's processes. So the recommended auction really considered
in the most favorable position for the council and it meets all the objectives that we originally set
So that's the end goal there.
We hope to push that through the cabinet.
We've got a series of recommendations here.
There's quite a lot there for you all.
I'm sure you've read those.
Essentially, we want to get to a position
where should the medical centre not happen,
we can still forge ahead.
I think everybody's keen to see something happen with FOCA2
now and get that delivered.
And hopefully, we've got everything in place
to enable that to happen.
So if there's any questions, please fire ahead.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:21:32
I noted that you said if the medical centre is built,
there'll be increased footfall, which we definitely want in town,
possibly up to 23 ,000 people.
Has there been consideration of parking?
Because that's an issue already.
How are we going to compensate for that?
especially if people are quite ill and having to think about how much they're going to pay for parking and so on.
What considerations were you made for that?
Mr Rod Lean - 1:22:02
Yes, we've looked into parking. That was a key aspect for the GPs as well.
They needed to have ambulances come up to the building to enable people to get in there quickly or vice versa, go to hospital quickly.
So there is, and they've got disabled car parking quite nearby as well.
In terms of the parking for the public and people visiting,
we're looking at, that's why we're close to the transport links there
in terms of the bus station.
They've got the ASDA car parks.
There's quite a lot of public car parks around that we can use.
So we've kind of factored a lot of that into the mix at this stage.
It's a difficult one.
We can't create new spaces right next to the building.
That is a difficult one.
But actually the location and the fact it's near the bus station
I think bodes well in terms of good people being able to get to the medical centre.
Any other questions?
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:22:52
Just a little bit confused.
Cllr John Wing - 1:22:59
The selling of FOCA 1 is obviously mentioned
and also a potential from either the civic centre or whatever.
Is that part of putting the financial package together or is that separate?
That's sort of an add -on, if that makes sense, you understand.
Yes, I do, thank you.
Mr Rod Lean - 1:23:20
It's all part of the financial modelling,
so we've incorporated the different scenarios with that.
As the receipts come in, we've factored that into our planning
and predicted the different years to model that through,
in terms of borrowing costs.
If we get capital receipts, then we can reduce our borrowing, etc.
So that's how we've factored it in.
So, yeah, I hope that answers your question.
Going on from that, where do we stand at the moment?
We're still in the Civic Centre, I wasn't really aware.
I realise there's a Cabinet paper gone through about looking at the potentials.
I mean, obviously, for the one we talked about tonight, something about that,
hopefully we will find a buyer and it will go through.
What about the Civic Centre? Where do we actually stand without that as part of this?
Thank you, Councillor Wayne.
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:24:09
The last cabinet report in July 2024 made reference to authorized officers to look at
disposal of the building.
The new paper which will be coming to cabinet in June talks about local government reorganisation
and the fact that we've had to park that.
However it is anticipated that the capital receipt for the sale of the building will
be earmarked for the business case to pay for the redevelopment of FOCA 2 and then that
will tie in from a timeline point of view with local government reorganisation 2028.
Thank you.
Councillor Hills.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:24:44
Thank you, Chair.
Councillor Tony Hills - 1:24:46
So much work's gone into this. It's amazing, really.
I've done the calculations of how many man hours it's cost us to date.
But going forward and trying to be positive,
will this committee, scrutiny, get a chance to look at how things are going on in the future?
because this is only a snapshot since 2020.
I've only been around on this committee a few months, a year.
So where could we get engaged to see how things are developing along the way?
And you're nodding, Susan.
Dr Susan Priest - 1:25:28
Who wants to speak because it's Susan or...
– Yes, it's the Governor.
Mr Ewan Green - 1:25:30
Thank you, Councillor Hills.
So once we move this forward into a project,
it will automatically become part of performance reporting for the Council.
So as a scrutiny committee you will see the quarterly performance reports,
there will be commentary on the redevelopment of Falkland within that,
that will also go to cabinet and they'll also be in the public as well.
And I daresay that what we would also do is,
what we've learnt about some of these projects in the past is,
particularly in the leveling up fund at the moment,
is doing some regular media campaigns and updates for the public as well,
telling you what's happening, when it's happening.
So members will have an opportunity to scrutinise progress
and the public will be kept well informed by progress
on the ground and the next steps.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:26:19
Councillor Tony Hills - 1:26:20
That's very important. The public are very important.
They put us here and they need to see what's going on.
So regular updates are not...
It slows down on the back of indecision in monthly.
They don't think we're doing this above a job,
but we can reassure them that we are.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:26:36
Thank you.
Councillor Chapman, then Councillor Holgate, then Councillor Martin.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Bridget Chapman - 1:26:45
I'm a patient at Guildhall practice,
which I think is one of the practices we're looking at moving into FOLKA.
was one and now two.
Nobody is keener than me and other residents
to see a more suitable space.
I think the Guildhall was originally set up for 950 patients
and now it's something like 9 ,000.
It's just not... With the best will in the world,
the staff can't put enough resources in there to deal with the number of patients.
I think you were saying in that presentation that there was...
between the end of the tender process and the start of the construction period,
it was a month? Is that realistic?
And I have a second question, if that's all right.
Mr Rod Lean - 1:27:46
Sorry. Yes, sorry, the question was
the difference between the end of the design process and the beginning of the...
No, it looked to me, and I might have misunderstood,
that between the end of the tender process and the start of the construction period,
it was just a month. Is that right and is that realistic?
After it's been procured.
Yes, sorry, after it's been procured.
So essentially what we do is we have the design phase,
which I mentioned earlier in the time scale with that.
Then you have the procurement stage
and then you go through to the construction phase.
I think we've allowed enough time between those phases to do the work.
If it has to move because of unforeseen or some other design changes,
then we'd obviously adjust accordingly.
I'm just keen, obviously, and I know we all are.
The second thing is,
Cllr Bridget Chapman - 1:28:44
Am I imagining that there was a changing places facility going into that building?
And did that happen?
Yes, there was talk of a changing places going in that building
Mr Rod Lean - 1:28:54
originally.
I think that's something that would happen as part of the planning
and building regs process anyway for the Medical Centre.
Thank you. Councillor Holgate.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:29:05
Three quick questions.
Cllr Rich Holgate - 1:29:08
And it was the number, 23 ,000 more footfall in the town, I'm just curious how that number
became that number.
And second was commercial units, how many commercial units was at TBC?
And the third question was community use, and have we marked any space for community
use anyway?
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Holgate.
Mr Rod Lean - 1:29:34
So in terms of the patient numbers, that's a combination of both practices and some increase as well in terms of the population and the demand on there as well.
In terms of the commercial make -up, yes, we can't really say what that is until we've actually gone ahead and developed something for commercials to look at.
and that's an important pillar.
We can talk about it for a long time,
but until we actually have space in the ground
and the construction is actually going ahead,
then it would be difficult to engage with commercials
at this stage, and there could be a big one,
there could be one that takes up half the floor,
it could be one that would take,
at least several that would take up the floor,
so it depends how that emerges over time.
Sorry, and there's a third question as well,
on community space.
The community space is something that we always try
to factor in if we can.
As I said, we're at Riebe stage 2, so it's early doors,
and depending on how we go with the commercial
and the actual occupation strategy and who goes in there,
there may be opportunity. We certainly haven't closed the door on that.
Thank you. Councillor Martin.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:30:41
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Martin - 1:30:46
I've got a cluster of questions around the financial models from the ICB.
The two main models that they're contemplating
are profoundly different to us aren't they in terms of the shape of cash flows and I
guess the risk involved in the project.
So I wonder do we have a preference, the extent to which we think we can influence it or is
that entirely an internal decision making process within the NHS that we've got no
influence over and then just your thoughts on how well aligned we are with the NHS so
Is the best option for us the least best option for them or do they look at finances in a in a completely different way?
Just your thoughts on that would be helpful. Thank you
Yeah, I think in terms of the finances it has been a it's difficult
Mr Rod Lean - 1:31:36
for reasons
I mentioned earlier around interest rates and building costs etc
The ICB obviously have to look at the whole the whole of Kenton and wider in terms of how they
finance it so if they negotiate one price point with one authority or developer then
that has a sort of sets of precedence for everywhere else so they've got to factor that
in as well.
So that's from their side what they've got to do.
From our side obviously we've got our borrowing costs to consider the income generation that
we potentially could get to make sure it washes its face and is viable.
So it's trying to marry those two together to kind of make it work.
Now both sides in principle think the idea is fabulous, everybody thinks we definitely
need and knows we definitely need, as Councillor Chapman said, these new surgeries for the
local community.
But it's how we can make it stack up financially is a critical element.
That's why we're determined to try and make it work as best we can.
But until we look at those numbers, until we, well we've looked at those numbers, until
we actually start to get some firm, I suppose, agreement with the ICB, they have their processes,
they get a district value we're in to check that what they're providing in terms of public finances
into the scheme offers value for money from their side as well so that's checked and that's kind of
almost like an audit process for them and that has to again just has to marry with us so what
we're trying to do is adjust and flex our model so that it works for us works for them and we're
at a point now where we think we've got numbers looking good but until the ICB goes through their
own internal process then, as I mentioned earlier, until they see that Reba stage 4
and see what those actual costs are, both sides need to then plug that into their model.
Once we get those tenders returned then we can see if we can get this agreement over
the line. But the in principle processes are there from both sides of the Eberlinds'
to make it work. But it's not an easy process to marry two different organisations financing
and also just to finally add the ICB have had capital money in the past where they've
got money and they can invest into it which really helps with that section too which they've
done in the past at the moment at this stage they haven't got that capital money to inject
so they're looking at alternative models and we're trying to work with them to see if we
and make it work.
Thank you. Just coming back on that,
Cllr Alan Martin - 1:34:11
do we have a preference between the two models they're contemplating?
And when we think about forming part of a bigger unitary council,
does our thinking on that change?
I mean, this getting less money over a shorter period of time
or a bigger amount of money over a longer period of time,
One of the things that influences your decision -making there
is you think of us as being quite a small council.
I guess things are less risky when you're part of a bigger group,
and you might actually take the greater amount of money
over a longer period of time,
but I don't know whether we've thought that through at this stage.
Yes, please.
Thank you.
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:34:55
From the council's perspective now,
minimising the risk as we go into this, as you've seen.
talking £13 million development,
so minimizing that risk for us is really
important so our preferred model would
be model one as in as in the presentation.
Which has a cumulative break even at year six,
so that minimizes our borrowing
in the early years.
It guarantees the cost,
the cost of the payback is met by the NHS,
which is what that model does.
So there's full cost recovery until
that amount for the Medical Center
is paid off and then it's paid off.
So that minimizes all the risk for the Council knowing that that half of the building, whatever
the percentage is, is paid off during that period and fully covered by the NHS.
So that is our preferred model.
They have suggested to us that that is their preferred model.
There is some detail to work through on that to do with MRP and things like that which
they're not quite as familiar with as we are because it's not a factor in the NHS whereas
it is for the government.
So we need to work through that with them.
So it's all standing quite positive at the moment,
but it's definitely a preferred model.
But the point of having the three models in here
is to show you that there are scenarios,
there's different scenarios.
We've looked at this, we've covered our bases,
and they all work slightly differently,
but they all produce a viable business case for the building.
With regards to the comments on LGR,
I think the way we're looking at this at the moment
is very much business as usual.
we don't know what LGR is bringing us quite yet.
So we are in here and now and we are doing the best thing for the town with this building
and in the best interest of the council and minimising that risk through the early years
at the moment.
That's about all I can say on that.
Any other questions?
Yes, Councillor Duke.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:36:47
Yeah, thank you.
Cllr Laura Davison - 1:36:50
Yes, I suppose just picking up on that LGR point is, yes, what would happen to the asset
further down the line.
And in terms of the modelling of the risks,
you've said that part of the model is the disposal of other assets.
So if that doesn't happen or happens later,
what are the implications for the project
and what does that do to the risks?
And then I think my other questions were...
We've talked about a medical centre for a long time,
but I think I've picked up that it's something a bit more limited
in terms of what we're looking at now,
perhaps to what would have been the case previously.
So can you just define what medical centre now means?
Because I think there were going to be other facilities and things,
weren't there, at an earlier phase?
Just so that everybody is clear what it is that we're looking at in that respect.
I've got a couple of questions, so forgive me.
The other thing that has come up in the course of discussions about FOLKA
is the future of the Gracehill Library.
And is there any update in relation to that
in terms of discussions with KCC?
You talked about community space in the building
and what may be possible in that regard.
and I think, obviously, again,
looking at the assessment of the different uses of the building,
the economic assessment and the other things that you talked about,
what was the kind of community assessment around uses of the building.
I don't know if you can say anything about possible leisure uses.
People might be interested in that
and whether there'll be any public consultation
around what may be in the building.
Then just clarity on the tendering process that you're talking about
for the design aspect.
Is that for the whole site or the site apart from the medical centre?
What goes into that tender?
Mr Rod Lean - 1:39:03
Thank you. I'll try and answer those questions.
I'm sure my colleagues will chip in as well where necessary.
In terms of the medical centre, you're correct.
The medical centre had a diagnostics,
various PCNs with it at the original FOLKA1 option. With FOLKA2 it is a GP surgery essentially but a
state -of -the -art one, so combining the two together with the advantage of potentially in the future
that could then grow as need arises as well, pending space. In terms of the library that again
is something that's not in our gift to say what will happen with the library. What we have done
though in terms of the design of Volker 2 is enable it to be flexible, the space to be flexible, so
if commercial or if you decided to be a public sector or if the library suddenly wanted to come in
we've got options there to try and accommodate that so we have kind of thought that one through
as well to ensure that we don't miss out an opportunity or indeed we kind of don't, we have
more design and therefore we have to then re -tender the whole process of what we're trying to do is
is try and factor in all of those different elements. In terms of the community space
again it depends on how the occupation will be made up so again that would be a decision
that could come back potentially if we were able to get the commercial to such a high level where
we've got a good income coming in and it's starting to really show some good revenue there
there might be opportunity there then to have some sort of community space there.
We did look at having a space there for entrepreneurs to test trade as well
within that building to see whether that's an option as well.
So again, we haven't taken anything off the table at this stage.
We're keeping everything on the table.
And in terms of... Read my writing here.
The leisure.
Leisure, yes.
The leisure facilities really with the basement
We do put in that competitive social aspect that we can potentially put in there, so that's
where people go in and play games and socialise.
It could be a gym etc, but again until we get the project to that next stage it's difficult
for us to go out to the commercial market to see what we were.
We've got very much one eye on the fact that we want to try and bring in commercial concessions
that don't necessarily directly compete with the existing ones in the town centre
but also draw in people and offer something different to folks in as well.
That's quite important to us.
But again, the market will dictate to a degree
but that's all part of the negotiations that will take place.
Was that everything?
I think the other ones were just about the design tender
and the risks in terms of the realisation of other assets.
Yeah, well certainly part of the design process is for the whole of the Foulker too, so that's the medical centre and commercial.
As I mentioned we're trying to keep it quite flexible, the space in terms of the overall building to enable us to be nimble should things slightly veer differently to what we plan to do with that building.
So we are trying to be quite mindful of that and also trying to link in the Foulker, sorry the levelling up funding works as well to make sure they marry up as well and there's no abortive costs there.
So there's a bit of a juggling out there and a fine line to balance
to make sure that we kind of get the design right
but also any construction that happens is non -aborted with a sudden change.
For example, venting or do you get a particular type of business
that wants a particular aspect to be put in there
as part of their building rig, etc.
So we're trying to be quite mindful and look at all the different permutations.
So yeah, I think that Andy wanted to take that.
The last question.
I think I was regarding the sale of the assets and what the risks
Mr Andy Blaszkowicz - 1:43:02
associated with that.
I think we've already spoken about the risks associated with FOLK 1, the FOLK 1 disposal.
But what we have done is factored them into the program at a point in time where we think there's a really reasonable amount of time to allow us to go through that sales process for both buildings.
buildings. This one absolutely confident with disposing of this building is a prime town
center site. Big, very confident that we'll dispose of this, but we've factored into the
program I think in year three after occupation. So what 2030, 2031 I would be expecting to
be discussing with developers as we know more about LGR and where we're going to be going
and things like that. What the council in the unitary looks like. I'd be expecting those
conversations to be happening a lot, lot sooner than that, probably even starting in 2027, I would think,
which would allow developers then to go to make their offers, their bids, have that bid accepted and go through their planning process in plenty of time
for us to dispose and manufacture into the model, so I'm not concerned about that at all.
So you want to come in, don't you?
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:44:13
Mr Ewan Green - 1:44:14
Thank you. I think Councillor Davidson, you made a comment about Grace Hill and the process.
Just to confirm, there are no live, ongoing discussions with officers
between the County Council and ourselves, other than Grace Hill going into Volker,
and certainly nothing's changed since I think we...
Councillor Baitmore, as the cabinet member,
I think answered a question at Council last autumn on that.
Nothing's changed since that position.
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:44:38
Thank you. Any other questions?
Okay. So that was for noting. We have no other items.
I will check because it might be me being very, very eager.
OK, right, and that's the end of our meeting.
Thank you very much, council, councillors.