Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee

Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee
Tuesday, 1st July 2025 at 6:00pm

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Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Slide 1
Mr Jake Hamilton
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly

1 Apologies for absence

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2 Declarations of interest

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Declarations of Interest

Cllr Paul Thomas
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Cllr John Wing
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3 Annual Performance Report 24-25

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Gavin Edwards
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
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Cllr Paul Thomas
Gavin Edwards
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Cllr Paul Thomas
Gavin Edwards
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Cllr Alan Martin
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Cllr Paul Thomas
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Paul Thomas
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Alan Martin
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Mr Jonathan Hicks
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Cllr John Wing
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly

4 Performance Management Framework and draft KPIs 2025-26

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Cllr Alan Martin
Mr Jonathan Hicks
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Cllr Alan Martin
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Cllr Paul Thomas
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Cllr Alan Martin
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Alan Martin
Mr Jonathan Hicks
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Cllr Paul Thomas
Gavin Edwards
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Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly

5 General Fund Revenue Provisional Outturn 2024-25

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FHDC Officer
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Cllr Alan Martin
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Cllr Alan Martin
Mr Alan Mitchell
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Cllr Alan Martin
Mr Alan Mitchell
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Cllr Alan Martin
Mr Alan Mitchell
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FHDC Officer
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Mr Alan Mitchell
Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly
Cllr John Wing
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6 General Fund Capital Programme Provisional Outturn 2024/25

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Jonathan Smith
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Jonathan Smith
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Cllr Paul Thomas
Jonathan Smith
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Cllr Paul Thomas
Mr Alan Mitchell
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Cllr Alan Martin
Jonathan Smith
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Jonathan Smith
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Jonathan Smith
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7 HRA Revenue and Capital Provisional Outturn 2024-25

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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:00:00

Good evening and welcome to the meeting of the Finance and Performance Scrutiny Subcommittee.

This meeting will be webcast live to the internet.

For those who do not wish to be recorded or filmed, you will need to leave the chamber.

For members, officers and others speaking at the meeting, it is important that the microphones

are used so viewers on the webcast and others in the room may hear you.

Would anyone with a mobile phone please switch it to silent mode as they can be distracting.

I would like to remind members that although we all have strong opinions on matters under

consideration, it is important to treat members, officers and public speakers with respect.

It's good that I put that notice on, but I'm.

It all sorted, Councillor.

OK, so item one, apologies for absence.

Mr Jake Hamilton - 0:01:03

Thank you, Chair. We have apologies from Councillor Holgate.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:01:07

Thank you very much. Item 2 declarations of interest. Do

members have any declarations?

1 Apologies for absence

2 Declarations of interest

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:01:14

Yes, Councillor Thomas. Yes, I'm a director of opportunity.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:01:19

Thank you. Council Wing. Also director of opportunity.

Cllr John Wing - 0:01:23

Thank you, Council Wing.

3 Annual Performance Report 24-25

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:01:26

Item 3 annual performance report 2024.

Officer Gavin Edwards is going to introduce this item.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair, and good evening, members.

Gavin Edwards - 0:01:37

This report sets out how the Council was delivered for local people in the District in 24 -25

in relation to the priorities documented within the Corporate Plan Creating Tomorrow Together.

The report also provides performance data against the agreed corporate KPIs

for the fourth quarter of 24 -25 year and the end -of -year out -term position.

The Council's corporate plan creating tomorrow together, which runs from 2021 to 2030, has

now been superseded by a new corporate plan called Our District, Our World, and that was

considered by Cabinet on 20 March 2025 and reflects the priorities of the current political

administration elected in May 2023.

The 24 -25 annual performance report will therefore be the last performance report to be monitored

against the former corporate plan, with new reporting arrangements being set up for the

25 -26 financial year as part of the review of the Council's performance management framework,

which is an item on this agenda this evening.

The Council's continued to pursue an ambitious corporate agenda in 24 -25 and the annual report

set out in Appendix 1 tonight is a testament to the hard work and resilience of teams across

the organisation in contributing towards corporate priorities.

Some of those highlights have been set out in Section 2 .2 of the cover report for you.

The end of year performance report is set out in Appendix 2 and provides a summary of

Council's performance for quarter four, covering January to March of 2025, as well as the end

of year out term results for the 24 -25 year. Where performance has not been achieved, explanations

have been sought from the relevant service leads and noted in section three of the cover

report.

There are some notable areas of good performance this year, including the average number of

days to process new claims for housing benefit. Our end of year position this year was 8 .7

days compared to 12 .2 days the previous year. The number of households in the district receiving

support through the UK Shared Prosperity Fund.

The end of year out turn was 547 households supported against an annual target of 200

compared with 421 previously.

Street cleanliness, again the end of year out turn on that was 98 % compared with 97 .4 %

the previous year.

Pilot events to inform the market improvement programme for the town centre which is led

by the regeneration team was six achieved against an annual target of four and there

some notable ones in the report around some of the projects and initiatives they've done

there.

Long term empty homes brought back into use.

We achieved 76 this year for 24 -25 against the annual target of 50.

Council new builds and homes acquisition started on site 44 against an annual of 20.

This 44 were the homes purchased for the housing revenue account which are located at Risma,

Barracks and Shoncliffe.

Properties that met the decent home standard,

99 % target against the 99 % target there.

We had 389 properties within our stock

that didn't meet the decent home standards

at the start of the 24 -25 year,

and at the end of quarter four, that had reduced to 37.

And obviously work will be continuing

to make those homes decent as we move into,

obviously this financial year, 25 -26.

Business rates collections, 99 .23 %

against the annual target of 97%.

And the increased take -up of My Account

and online transactions, we achieved 81 .3 %

against the annual target of 80%.

In quarter four, we had 475 new customers

registered for the My Account service.

And since that launch of the service in August 2020,

a total of 42 ,257 people have registered for that service,

which equates that 81 .3 % take -up,

so the target has been exceeded for the year there.

On an additional note, I would like to say, obviously,

the percentage of household waste recycled that has now been confirmed for quarter four

as 43 .7 % against the target of 50 and the end of year out term was 46%. So slightly

up, very minor on the previous financial year as we've set out in the report. This has been

updated for the cabinet report for the submission on the 16th of July. The report once considered

the evening will be considered at the meeting of cabinet on the 16th of July and I'm happy

to take any questions this committee might have.

Thank you.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:05:42

Thank you so much for that.

And I want to congratulate the Council and the officers for their brilliant work over

the year, especially because I don't know how often I see a 100 % rate on performance

in regards to planning, major planning applications being decided on time.

That's brilliant.

So thank you very much for that.

and I can also see that you won an award,

a county award as well, so well done on that.

Obviously we're here to discuss some of the things

that didn't go so well, and I'm sure that the councillors

have some questions in relation to that,

so I open the floor for any questions

in relation to this report.

Councillor Thomas.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:06:27

Yeah, thank you, Chair.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:06:28

Yeah, excellent report, and again,

some fantastic achievements in the year.

Just a couple of things for clarification, as much as anything else, please.

So against service ambition 2, 3 .24, you've talked about percentage of household waste

recycled 43 % against the target 50%.

The question I have is what do we have to do next to be able to raise that percentage

again because we've got to do something like another 6 % to meet our target for next year.

So how do you think we're likely to be able to achieve that? Thank you.

Gavin Edwards - 0:07:15

Thank you chair and thank you Councillor Thomas for your question. It's something obviously

I've raised with waste colleagues there. Obviously in the year and the report mentions as well

we have raised, we have had several campaigns and obviously service changes for the waste

service, notably the ultra narrow route, the garden waste route changes and in 24 -25, obviously

with that intention of increasing the recycling rate.

Obviously we know it's slightly, increased slightly as you'll see in the report from

the numbers there on the previous financial year, 23 -24.

The challenges I think has been reflected as well, previous committee meetings when

Mr. Rush was here to answer some questions around that was obviously the producer industry

is now receiving financial incentive, obviously to find a thing called extend the producer

responsibility to reduce packaging, which obviously means lighter loads, making it harder

to increase some of those recycling rates, so the tonnage rates overall. But that's obviously

part of the issue and obviously there are seasonal factors involved in that as well

with obviously garden waste and things like that as well. So you'll notice there'll be

a dip sometimes in Q3 in terms of the tonnages there as well. It's something that they'll

we continue to look at and it is obviously a challenge

I think that's noted.

But I mean as a notable point as well,

you had a benchmarking report recently commissioned

by the Kent Resource Partnership

and that shows that the district had the second lowest

average per kilogramme household waste in Kent

compared to sort of an average which is around 735 kilos

there per annum as well.

So yeah, there is still work to do,

but it's gonna be an ongoing challenge.

Obviously, if you're making packaging lighter

and obviously as well with other seasonal factors as well,

but I'm happy to take any further questions back

to the waste team to discuss that.

Go ahead, Councillor Thomas.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:09:09

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:09:14

Yeah, under section 342, long -term empty homes booking,

brought back into use, I think it's excellent

that we've achieved 76 against a target of 50.

But the target is 50 again this year.

Is that a soft target?

Because we've exceeded that this year and 103 homes improved as well.

So in terms of challenging what we're doing and improving things for our residents, should

we be looking at that target of 50 and saying why don't we increase that?

because we've been monstively able to do a higher target

than that in the last year.

Thank you.

So thank you for your, again,

Gavin Edwards - 0:09:57

comments on that, Councillor Thomas.

Yeah, the targets are obviously set by service leads

at the time, that's what they agreed based on the,

based on the results and the performance

that they've achieved.

Do note your point, we should always be stretching ourselves

where possible.

There is, obviously, we do note that the out time

and it was way above where we were there on that position.

I'm obviously happy to take a conversation back

with regards to that, with the service lead

to set the target with regards to that.

But that was what was agreed and what was set

in terms of the access to resorts and things like that.

That's what was proportionately based around.

But I do note your comments and I'm very happy

to take that back.

Thank you.

Councillor Martin.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:10:42

Thank you, Chair.

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:10:48

So just to echo, I think it's a really good report and the report obviously highlights loads of great work that's been done by the Council.

And specific to the KPIs, not only do they look good and there's loads of good performance in there,

but I also appreciate all of the work you guys have done as a team.

Gavin, we had loads of questions this time last year around how the KPIs worked,

whether they were quite being represented in the right way.

And with Councillor McConville,

we gave you a lot of feedback 12 months ago.

When I look at the KPIs now, they look so much better

and it's much easier to read and it's clearer to know what's going on.

And there's lots of green on the report, which I think is largely good.

But I do...

The conversation for later when we're looking at the new KPIs

it's just whether we're setting the targets in the right place would be my question

as to whether we're truly challenging ourselves to improve things or presenting a good picture.

I'm also slightly concerned still that we don't track the right things to enable us

to properly demonstrate the performance of the Council and most of those points I'll

up on the new KPIs later.

But an example of that, if you look on page 37,

to a certain extent, it's a point we've discussed before.

But when we're looking at all of these thriving environment

points, so there aren't set targets here,

but we sort of show a bit of a trend line.

If you look at fixed penalty notices issued

for high level environmental crime,

We're seeing it going from 16 to 40 and we're showing that as being a deterioration and

the question that always comes up in my mind is what is it that we're tracking?

So I could present an argument that says it's really good that the council picked up 40

of these cases this year rather than 16.

Equally we could say oh it's disastrous because there were 40 cases they had to respond to

this year and not just 16.

and I guess we can come back to that later when we're thinking about KPIs going forward.

But I struggle with the KPIs from the point of view that I personally would like to see more lines of data

that help me diagnose where the problem is and for us to ask ourselves as a council

whether we're doing the right things to resolve that problem.

And these high level KPIs I struggle with a little bit.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:13:28

Thank you for good evening chair and thanks for the question Councillor.

I concur with that completely.

So there was definitely scope moving forward when we look at how we're going to be reporting

performance to this committee to help provide more informative data.

In this report it is high level and therefore it is only one liner.

So we will be looking to use the committee to scrutinise more heavily the performance

and we can supplement that with information.

Trend arrows aren't always that helpful.

In this case with the fixed penalty notices and when we're taking enforcement action,

it's a good thing we're taking enforcement action but it's not a good thing if we've

had to.

So we've interpreted that as a negative thing

if we've had to do more fixed penalty notices.

So in some cases that can be a bit misleading

and there's no target for that either

because it's more of a monitoring thing.

So I think most of the case where there was a target,

the trend arrows will indicate whether or not

we're actually improving on our performance

rather than the direction of travel.

But yes, take your point

and certainly we can look at providing the data we need

to support the KPIs going forward.

Councillor Thomas.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:14:51

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:14:53

Thank you. It's just prompted me with another question

in relation to the Q4 on quality homes and infrastructure.

So we have three consecutive, not met,

their average number of rough sleepers in the period, average number of households in

B &B accommodation and average number of households in temporary accommodation.

So again it just begs the question about, you know, what are we doing to alleviate some

of that?

And in some ways, are we putting the cart before the horse with some of these?

Do we understand why?

And then are we actually putting the right mitigations in place?

because some of those things are interrelated, aren't they,

in terms of rough sleepers, then B &B and then temperate coordination.

So again, I think for me, the fact that all three of those there,

you've got a bar to say that we're OK

with average number of rough sleepers in the period,

but the other two were pointing down to say that's poor performance.

So it's really just trying to understand that and the data that sits behind it.

and then relating that maybe to the wider Kent area,

or those other areas in Kent that have similar issues

associated with social deprivation and those other factors,

which tend to influence those kinds of...

that kind of KPI. Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor, for that question.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:16:23

Again, concur with all of that,

that there's a lot of interrelated issues here.

We recognise that the position on temporary accommodation, bed and breakfast and rough sleeping isn't where we want it to be.

They are. It does follow national trends.

I don't have any data on statistics from our colleagues in Kent to hand.

But in the cover report we've put some commentary that we've got from the housing team around that.

So as well as national trends being high in temporary accommodation,

our placements in particular have included a significant number of single people

with more complex issues, that's what they've put,

where providing that suitable long -term accommodation is pretty difficult.

One of the actions that we're taking is to looking at the HRA stock that we've currently held

and providing potential 10 to 20 units from that

to be utilised as TA over the short term.

We also recognise that the targets that we've set

were based on the position it was a year ago

and that's not the position we are in now.

So we will see in the next report

that we're actually gonna suggest a more reflective target.

It's still stretching but it's not,

we can't put zero for bed and breakfast.

Ideally we wouldn't house anybody Ben and Breakfast and we're assured by the team that that's a last resort.

But just to clarify, the numbers that you see in TA which we're reporting there is 64, that includes that 60 that's not on top of...

It's included within that, so that's going to be high when we've housed more people in Ben and Breakfast.

and this year, particularly in Q4,

we've had to house more people in bed and breakfast

due to the severe weather emergency,

the pressure problem swept.

But yes, so in terms of what we're doing about it,

in addition to those 10 to 20 potential units,

the housing team are looking to re -procure

their list of temporary accommodation providers

to provide better value,

so that doesn't necessarily solve the problem,

but it actually, there's a cost involved in this,

So we have the best value from that.

And also I understand that the council's

leading on a review of TA costs with the Kent Housing Group.

But we recognise that this is a major issue for us

and an ongoing concern and it's also

on the council's corporate risk register as a result.

So, did I mention?

Yes, of course.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, thank you for that.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:19:11

And in terms of the comments,

so thank you for your reply.

And most of the things you said,

There were accompanying comments in the text which rationalised that.

So my point is, we're dealing with rough sleepers, 15,

as a management, we can get around a table, can't we, almost.

So it's understanding, year on year,

are they the same 15 people we've been dealing with for the last few years?

How is that picture changing

in relation to some of the people that we are dealing with.

And the same with number of households in B &B.

Are we just recycling people through these schemes or not?

And that information isn't included in the report

from what I can see.

But again, you're looking at 16, it's manageable numbers

that are out there, you can get your arms around those.

You're not dealing with some of the things that they are,

wouldn't be some of the London boroughs, for example,

are we?

So, for me, I'd like to understand that just a little bit more,

and then say, what can we as a council do?

And I understand, our severe weather protocol is fantastic.

We get it out there really early, don't we?

We're very proactive when it comes to trying to make sure

we provide the right things for the right people at the right time.

I think that's fantastic.

But that's dealing with this bit here,

and I think there might be an underlying element to this

that we might not necessarily be dealing with.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Councillor, just to respond to that.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:20:46

Again, I agree with you,

and I think I welcome that scrutiny.

I think that's exactly what we want to use this committee for

and it may be that we can bring the relevant expertise here

to the meeting and certainly find that information

because there's been a lot of complex issues here

that I'm not aware of.

What I can say about the rough sleeping

is that I don't know if they're the same people,

but there is an element or a number

which are roughly by choice,

and they're not necessarily,

yeah, but I don't know that,

so I think this is exactly what we can bring

to this committee to scrutinise if that's helpful.

Yes, Councillor Mott.

Thank you, Chair.

Yeah, just on the rough sleepers,

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:21:35

and it is something that in the last year

we've discussed a little bit and I was going to raise again under the new KPIs but I think

that's a really good example of where if we're judging the council and what it has control

over but equally not shutting our eyes to a problem, I think that's where you do need

that more granular, you need to be able to drill down into a high level KPI to better

understand what's going on and I'm aware of at least one rough sleeper who the council

we literally couldn't have done anything more for them.

They'd been housed and then they'd leave that house

and go back to where they live

because they prefer it there, frankly.

And I think there needs to be a way of showing that

in the KPIs because that would be an example

of where we're sort of boxed into a corner

where we're consistently showing a red figure.

And it may well be that we should show a red figure

that relates to the total number of rough sleepers because that's not that's not good

but we should be able to drill into that and see the nuances around what has the council

done to try and resolve the situation what has been offered and to really flag those

areas where the council has both performed well but also flag the areas within that where

maybe the council can work better in the future so I know we're all sort of agreed on the

but I'd like us to spend a bit of time on that later if we can.

Just to say yes, I will.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:23:07

I know we're coming away with a few actions but it's exactly what we want really.

We want that kind of scrutiny and if we know what you want to scrutinise we can support that.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:23:23

I think one thing that we were discussing when we had a pre -meeting before this meeting

was that some of the targets, we talk about smart targets,

and some of the targets don't seem realistic.

So one of them that you had as a zero,

how likely are you ever going to meet that?

I think you've just said that you're going to change that anyway.

But if, for example, it's not the case that we're trying to say that

don't put challenging targets.

But if you look at the landscape and maybe you compare yourself with other councils,

You compare yourself historically with if you've ever been able to get even close to that target.

If you've never been able to get close to it, nobody else manages to get close to it.

Why are we still using that as a target if it realistically we're not going to ever reach it?

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:24:18

Thank you, Chair. Have you got a specific example in the report?

Well, so as I said, you know when you have the zero target, which is completely unrealistic

and it's highly unlikely that we're going to reach it, but then also when we talk about

the fact, as Councillor Martin was talking about, sometimes, especially when it comes

to people who are homeless, there will be some people who will be chronically homeless

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:24:44

because they prefer to be out in the streets and they will never, you will never get them

housed or you may get them housed and then they'll go back into the streets.

So if you do actually go down to the micro level

and start putting in that information about

in relation to the statistics, that will make it,

even if you do want to continue having targets like that,

it will be more understandable if people

are going to be reading the statistics

that you're providing.

Thank you, Chair.

I completely understand that.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:25:12

I think it will be addressed in the next report,

but we are looking particularly

around temporary accommodation, homelessness statistics

and KPIs to make a target more reflective.

These targets were, when they were originally set,

we were meeting them.

So that the problem is in that area has, you know,

it's become more acute over the last year particularly.

So I think the point where we set the targets,

we felt that they were achievable.

but there's an annual process for reviewing KPIs and targets,

which we do with managers.

We'd like to get the committee involved in that.

I'm jumping ahead of myself now,

but essentially you should get the opportunity alongside us

to review why we're setting the targets.

And in some cases, some are statutory,

some are contractual, some are best practise,

and some we do have benchmarking information for.

It's not provided in this report, but that's what we would hope that we could provide in

order to have an informed discussion about targets going forward.

Thank you, that would be really helpful.

Any other points?

Yes, Councillor Wood.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:26:26

Thank you, Chair.

First, talking about targets, it's also about recycling.

Cllr John Wing - 0:26:31

I, the member, has been on this committee for a long time, it's been 50 % for a long

time and we're sort of just bouncing beneath and we never quite get there, we're up and

down, up and down.

We wonder if we can get a few extra points just to creep over it,

or whether that 50 % is the one we can look into.

Going back to the excellent report,

the affordable housing by the council and partners,

I think you've already explained that.

You've got a number of projects on the horizon.

I know Shorncoteith Heights is one, so perhaps that covers that slightly.

The only other one was at the end, it talks about potential data breaches.

I did read through you had a problem, wasn't there,

with the reason why we not quite reached this, is that correct?

Yes, I'll try and take those in order if I can remember them.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:27:22

Firstly, the waste, I think we covered that at the beginning,

but also the target 50 % was set because it was specified in the last corporate plan,

as specifically as 50%.

It's also a nice round figure, isn't it?

And we'd like to have half of our waste recycled,

so we don't really want to lower that.

The next question was around,

someone remind me,

affordable housing.

Affordable housing.

Yes, and that's right.

That's right.

The one of the things about the affordable housing targets,

these were set as part of the HRA business plan

over a number of years with a certain number of

properties to be sort of developed in years.

But of course, as developments work,

they don't work to financial years.

So what we're going to start doing is looking at having a cumulative total against the life of the plan.

So if we plan to do X number in this year and we exceed that, we're in credit for the next year.

Does that make sense? Or if we're in deficit this year, we know what we have to make up in the following year.

And forgive me, I've forgotten what the last one was.

That updated please.

That's my area, so I should know that one.

Yes, so that, for data breaches,

anything that's reported to us, we record,

and we have to assess within 72 hours

whether or not it is actually a reportable breach

that needs to go to the ICO.

And there was a case earlier in the year

where the officer that we had had done all the work

but not actually closed it down.

And it's not counted as being closed down

it's been properly assessed and closed down on the system.

So it was reported as being technical.

But it wasn't a reportable breach.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:29:12

Thank you. Any other points?

OK, thank you.

So, obviously I know there's lots of different points that have been made

and I'm sure that they've been noted.

So now we're going to move on to receiving and noting the report.

C2514 can I have a proposal please?

Thank you, Councillor Martin, a seconder.

Thank you, Councillor Thomas and Michelle

Hands to vote. OK, that's passed.

OK, so we move on to item 4,

performance management framework

4 Performance Management Framework and draft KPIs 2025-26

and draught KPIs 2526 and Officer Jonathan

Hicks is going to introduce that.

Thank you. Thank you chair and good

evening again members and colleagues

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:29:55

and say thanks for my finance colleagues

for sitting through our long reports.

But this report here is an important one

that we wanted to bring to the committee.

We are taking it to cabinet for approval.

So there's a couple of things that I wanted to present.

One is a revised performance management framework.

Second is those new KPIs and targets for the current year.

So first of all, this framework document, last reviewed in July 2021, and because it

was that long ago, I'm sure that there's probably not that many people in the room that remember

the last one, but it is the framework that we've been operating under for that time.

It's shaped around our core values, supported by our management structure and measured through

through our service plans operationally, key performance indicators and personal development

reviews.

It sets out how financial monitoring is organised and reported here through this committee,

as well as how performance information is shared and scrutinised through officers, teams,

corporate leaders and this committee.

So it is, as it says, a framework of how we're managing and monitoring performance.

We've been due for review this year, so it's been revised to reflect the new corporate

plan, which received council approval last week, as well as reflecting our operational

structure and the services we are providing currently.

That's changed somewhat in the last four years.

You'll note that the existing set of KPIs, which we've just been deliberating, is tied

to the Nast Corporate Plan.

So this presents us with an opportunity to revise and review how we're reporting both

performance against corporate plan objectives and key performance information separately.

you'll note that the comments that yourselves or colleagues have made

have been on KPIs more than the corporate plan.

And one of the intentions that we have

was to separate the reporting of both

so that progress on strategic actions,

so for example high -level projects, policies, activities,

are reported separately from KPIs.

So you'd have a strategic action plan approved by Cabinet, reviewed annually, with progress

reported six monthly to Cabinet, and that would focus on the delivery of the commitments

in the corporate plan.

Supporting that, but separate, a key performance scorecard report, similar to what we've got

here, but aligned to the corporate structure.

So it's the way that the council is structured under teams, under service areas,

but a more expansive suite and potentially fleshed out with more data.

This would include strategic KPIs which support the corporate plan,

but in addition operational KPIs which also may be regulatory, statutory and contractual,

which we're not necessarily seeing at the moment.

So there's two things we're asking here.

One is that you approve and support the performance

management framework and secondly the appended proposed

KPIs and targets which is Appendix 3.

We will be taking this to cabinet for approval.

Cabinet.

These things are KPIs that we're monitoring already but

they're not necessarily coming to committee.

As I've said, it's an expanded suite

and we recognise quite a lot of them

because a lot of the things that we were doing in the last corporate plan

and in the last key performance report, we're still doing now.

So there's a continuation.

But there are some new things in there.

You'll see those in the report

listed on the left -hand side in the column that will say New KPI.

Of note, a whole raft of KPIs for the Housing Landlord Service,

which will reflect the requirements of the regulator of social housing's new consumer standards.

We have to report on this anyway, and so we submit this data to the housing regulator

based on standard definitions of KPIs, but it's not getting scrutiny here.

The reason we haven't been able to do that is because the last performance report was

titled the last corporate plan.

One of the reasons we're separating it out is that it should allow flexibility for the

corporate plan to be treated in one way.

But secondly, we have a set of KPIs which we can debate here and as the committee take

part in an annual review of those KPIs and targets and that will come back quarterly

so there's more granular detail.

And what we've got there is a starter set and I appreciate you haven't had input into

it this year but having spoken to the portfolio holder, deputy leader, Councillor Prater,

who's had cited these, he's had some suggestions and probably there may be some suggestions

you have of potential indicators.

So we are going to be putting in a recommendation to cabinet when this goes,

that although this is a starter set of KPIs, we will consider adding or mending this set in year

through agreement with the portfolio holder and a relevant director,

which gives you a bit of flexibility in scope.

But I appreciate there's a lot in here, but that's the plan

and I'm happy to open it up to any questions.

Thank you.

Councillor Martin.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:36:25

Thank you, Chair.

And I really like this report

and I like the performance management framework a lot, actually.

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:36:33

I think it makes the workings of the Council that much more transparent

and I like every aspect of it, actually, at a high level.

I'll start off with the...

We'll come back to the KPIs in a second,

but on the strategic action plan.

So I really like that being separated.

I had a question as to, so that's

going to be agreed by the cabinet

and then reported back to the cabinet every six months.

I guess I had an open question as to whether that would,

like a number of other cabinet reports,

will that come to overview and scrutiny first?

I personally would love to have an opportunity to scrutinise that,

and I think it would be healthy and appropriate

for overview and scrutiny to do that.

It could be a once -a -year thing rather than for every six months,

but if you think of the flow of how this works,

like every corporate plan, there are elements of the corporate plan,

when you read it in itself, that are a little bit woolly.

They always are, it's not a criticism of the corporate plan.

Of course, the corporate plan is only ever as good as the action plan that sits underneath it.

So I think, having had an opportunity to debate and discuss as members the corporate plan,

I'd like to see a good level of scrutiny around the strategic action plan.

and it feels to me like overview and scrutiny would be a good place to do that,

maybe a week or so before it goes into cabinet.

So maybe I'll let you comment on that bit first.

Thank you, Councillor.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:38:22

I think we'll take that under advisement that that's something that is not on the work plan for this year,

but it could be something that is considered moving forwards.

I don't know how flexible they are and who makes those decisions,

but I recognise that that would provide an opportunity for scrutiny of the corporate action plan.

Bear in mind you haven't seen it so I also know that you don't know what I'm referring to

but in a nutshell it's words as opposed to numbers.

It's written actions and it would be progress against actions.

what you're likely to see at this committee,

financial performance,

is within that KPI report,

anything that does support actions

in the corporate plan you can highlight.

So you can see that in achieving these KPIs,

that's working towards this corporate action,

but we'll take that away and see if that's

something that the committee wants to consider.

Thank you.

Councillor Martin.

Yeah, thank you, Chair.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:39:26

It would be great if you could.

I don't know how these things work,

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:39:31

the extent to which that possibly could be something

that's picked up in your report with Cabinet

for them to make a decision around that.

And for clarity, so I agree.

I'd quite like to see the action plan

and then I'd like to scrutinise how we're monitoring those actions.

It would be good to see both parts of that. Thank you.

Thank you. Anybody else?

Councillor Turner.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:40:00

Thank you, Chair.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:40:01

You've answered already one of my questions, I could say.

Why is there no link to the corporate plan and the corporate plan action plan?

So I think we've covered that in what you've actually said to us.

Going on to the specific KPIs that is included in there,

there appears to be only one new KPI in there, have I?

Under Place and Growth,

which talks about average dwell time on the Folkstone Hive website of 49 seconds.

I'm just really struggling to understand what does that tell us.

Why would we measure it and what does it tell us?

Because I can't work it out. Maybe I'm just a bit fished on, don't I?

Thank you, Councillor.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:40:53

I'll try and answer the second point first.

I'm not that fine.

Not that one.

Not okay, sorry.

It was put forward by the manager of the team, something that they wanted to monitor.

The way we've done this is we've looked at what we currently report, asked managers to

say what else would help you manage your service better, and of those, what do you want reported

reported to members and it was felt that that one was helpful to see how people are accessing

the website to view activity.

In terms of the first question about within that section, that's perhaps the only one

but there's a lot in the rest of the report.

Councillor Martin.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:41:45

Thank you, Chair.

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:41:49

So now focusing on the KPIs, I had two main areas really.

So one, I guess it's the reverse of what the chair raised earlier.

In the, for instance, under financial services, we've got housing benefit.

And it seems over the last couple of years that housing benefit, I haven't got the thing

here, but I think they're dealt with within three or four days.

and we're setting a target of seven days.

So I guess in the same way that earlier we were saying

are we setting ourselves targets

that we're just gonna consistently fail,

I wonder with some of them whether we're setting a target

which is almost locking in a green

and I wonder whether there should be

a challenging conversation around what that should look like.

Thank you, Councillor.

Going back to a point I raised earlier,

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:42:41

I think a methodology around how we're reviewing the targets and the reasons why we set them

in different ways for different departments is a welcome thing and I think that would

be very good for this committee.

With regard to the benefit ones, I understand that's a national target and that's why it's

set for that which means we're overperforming and that's why it's set that way.

Thank you for that and that makes a lot of sense and I think that's what's going on with

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:43:13

the planning ones as well isn't it where you've got a national target which is quite a bit

lower than what we achieve locally.

And then without repeating the conversation earlier but just going back to and adding

a bit of colour to this conversation we had earlier about more granular information.

I don't so you're saying it would be

good for us to get involved.

I don't know whether this is something

that maybe we could.

Set up a few meetings around or

whether it's even there's even scope

for bit of a task task and finish

group or something or something just

to sort of work work with you on the

KPIs because I think it's such an

important thing for us to get right.

And it's it's positive for everyone

across the Council I think,

but so that's that's one thought.

And then just just.

Just going back to those points we covered earlier, I think for clarity, so with a lot

of those regulatory community services items, I think we need to follow the problem really.

So rather than how many penalty notices did we issue, we should be flagging, which I assume

but you know how many incidences were.

Reported and how many of those were,

you know, dealt with.

You might want something around the time

within which they were dealt with and

and then how many successful outcomes.

There were,

which I would imagine a subset of

those would be issuing notices,

you know,

and it might sound excessive,

but I'm pretty sure that information

would exist for most of these things,

but it would enable us to

better answer that question around whether seeing

the number of penalty notices going down

is a good thing or a bad thing.

And if there are bigger issues going on upstream,

it enables us to get our heads around what we then

need to do as a council.

And then Gavin's going to burst into tears in a second.

but on fly tipping, I've raised this a number of times, I think it's not unique to the marsh,

but I think it's a bigger problem on the marsh than in other areas,

where there's a very fine line between public land and private land,

and it's literally a blade of grass off the side of the road,

and my personal view which not everyone shares is that the council takes too much of a robust

view in deciding whether it's public land or private land and for a number of years

we've had KPIs that show greens for KPIs because the only thing that we're reporting is the

speed with which we clear the fly tipping up and the number of enforcements.

Whereas the people on the marsh would just see lots of rubbish everywhere

and wouldn't differentiate between the stuff technically on private land

and the stuff that isn't.

When we've discussed this before,

the argument I understand that comes back is that

we can't possibly be responsible for stuff that happens on private land.

But I think in terms of diagnosing the problem,

even if we're only challenging ourselves on the things that we're...

that we're forced to do under the rules.

I think it's still helpful to have a KPI

that responds to the underlying problem

and enables us to give some thought

to what we could do to address it.

And I think, in terms of are we responsible

for clearing the mess away, maybe we're still not,

but there are still things that we could do

to deter people from fly tipping

and to sort of prevent it from occurring.

And I think particularly with us looking into the world of a unitary council where the responsibilities

of KCC and districts sort of come together, I think there are far more conversations we

can have around how we can resolve some of these issues around fly tipping because we

would have control over the local tips.

And one of the big issues we have with landowners is the fact that they're outraged with the

fact they have to clear up the fly tipping themselves and further outweighs when they

realise they have to pay the dispose of the stuff.

And I think we could make up sort of more joined up decisions around that in future

and it would be nice to have a set of KPIs that help us diagnose where the problem is.

So I know that's a bit of a repeat of what we mentioned earlier but that's the kind of

thing I'd love to get into in whatever forum we get given.

Thank you Councillor.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:47:59

You've clearly got a performance head, which is welcome.

I'll attempt to answer a couple of points that I've got from that and your question.

Not directly related to the fly tipping, but in general, I think,

we will work to providing supporting information where we can,

which will help you make those informed decisions or make the questions easier.

In relation to the other question about a task and finish group,

if you're happy to support this set of KPIs,

I'd certainly be open to having a discussion

around how we've set these and the methodology around it.

I think going forward, if we perhaps make that as part of the plan

that you're involved in the setting of targets moving forward,

it'll make it more efficient at these meetings

if you're armed with, for example,

it could be, before I commit myself,

that alongside the report as reference

could be a set of definitions of how that KPLI's calculated.

It's an aim for hours to make sure that every KPLI's

got a clear definition and working method

so you can see how it's calculated.

So, at the moment, the reports are as they are

for the sake of conciseness and brevity.

If you had all the supporting information

for every KPI, it would be massive.

So we need to find that balance somewhere,

but I'm open to having a discussion

with colleagues and members around that.

Councillor Thomas.

Thank you, Tom Ayer. Thank you.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:49:42

Cllr Paul Thomas - 0:49:43

Just on the planning and building control, if I may,

KPI PP01, number of new homes built within the district,

has been removed and been replaced.

So my first question is, is that an example of something

which we have to report back up to government anyway,

don't we, in terms of beating our housing targets?

So well, you know, it is what it is at the end of the day,

isn't it?

We've replaced it with a number of new homes approved

in the period.

We set no target for that, which is fine.

But again, I just wonder whether that's something which we have

to feed back on our five -year housing stock.

So when you have a look at the number of homes

we're approving, we know what we've got

in terms of approved houses, which goes into

that five -year housing stock.

So I just wonder there, if that was the rationale

behind swapping those two over for under planning

and building control.

Thank you.

Gavin Edwards - 0:50:42

Thank you for your comments on that, Councillor Thomas.

Now obviously there might be one that was picked up

previously in the previous report as well.

The homes delivered, obviously the target around that

specifically, well you're right, is based around

what we have in the local plan and obviously

there'll be numbers that will be annual returns

to government on that.

What you'll note obviously in the previous report as well

is throughout the reporting period we've had this year

and members of the committee would have noticed it

in the last financial year as well, I mean for 24, 25,

is that obviously we can't provide a caution figure

on that new homes delivered because it's based on

the planning policy team doing the housing information

audit as well, and that's based on them going around

and looking at sites, looking at things that are being

delivered or started, and things like that,

as well as looking at council tax records, et cetera.

So the audit, which is what I reflected in the comments

of the last report we considered,

was that will not happen till October.

So it's providing the data at a certain point,

so we can't necessarily provide that

and accordingly position on that.

So I think it was felt necessary that the new one

we want to replace it with to a point would be able to give those numbers in terms of

what's been approved on a monthly basis which would then feed up onto a quarter which would

then be able to give you some information that the committee can scrutinise.

That's the rationale for it.

But I do take the point that the delivery is related to something we would have to report

back up to the government as part of the plans for making sure we're committing to helping

to deliver the homes that we need in the area.

But that's the rationale behind why we try to put it that way now.

Mr Jonathan Hicks - 0:52:19

Just to add to that thanks Gav, it was something that was raised by Councillor Prater also

so prior to going into the pack I couldn't change it but with the cabinet report we're

put that one back in so that you have both.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:52:44

There are no questions and will move on to proposing and seconding

all this so the recommendation for members is to receive a note

report. OS 2503 to note the proposed changes to performance

management framework and data quality strategy. Appendix one

and two to note the proposed suite of KPIs and targets for 2526 appendix three.

Do I have a proposer?

Councillor Thomas, a seconder?

Councillor Wing and can we vote by show of hands?

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:53:44

Thank you for your time.

OK, so we move on to item 5, general fund revenue provisional

5 General Fund Revenue Provisional Outturn 2024-25

outturn 2425 and that will be introduced by officer

Minisola Omoni.

Sorry if I pronounced your name incorrectly.

That's OK.

FHDC Officer - 0:54:04

Good evening, Chair and good evening members.

The report reflects the provisional revenue

outturn and reserves position showing the authorities

its performance for the year ended 31st of March, 2025.

So by comparing the latest budget against actuals,

resulting to a favourable position of 193K,

the summary of this position is provided on Appendix A.

That's what I have in the body of the report,

a graphical representation of the movements

between the budgets and the actuals.

It's the main variances which has also been provided

in the body of the report.

We have 307k unfavourable variance,

which is driven by the combination

of higher than budgeted rent rebate costs,

higher temporary accommodation costs,

and lower related subsidy received.

Today I'm just picking one of unfavourable

and another one of favourable positions.

So the favourable position, which we can find

in car parking, it's a total of 545k.

So this is on and off street parking,

and this is due to additional income than budgeted.

The significant increase in income

is largely due to parking notices issued,

increased levels of visitors' car parking permits,

and also reflecting demand

which is driven by weather condition.

An appendix has been provided listing variances of 40K and above on the account with explanation.

This can be found in Appendix B. The 193 favourable position in the report is net of transfer

to reserves, so we have some movements in reserves which is detailed on Appendix C,

and also we have proposed carry forward of 836k,

and these are provided in, they're detailed in Appendix D.

I'd also like to point out that these are,

this provision is a draught and it's subject to change

until audits are completed.

And I'm happy to take any questions.

Thank you.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:56:24

Any questions? Councillor Martin.

Thank you, Chair.

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:56:34

Yes, a couple of questions.

So in no particular order,

so there's a positive variance relating to capital loan expenditure for Otterfall Park

and I just wondered if you could just speak to that a little bit, just explaining it.

I think the report is telling me that it's just from delays and slippages in the project

which means that less needed to be borrowed but I just wanted to double cheque there wasn't

anything else going on in there.

Yes, sure.

Thank you, Councillor Marlion.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:57:12

So there's a couple of elements in that.

So firstly, you're right to, due to the council slippage in the programmes, there's less actual

borrowing required and therefore the cost is reduced. Also in my time here I also

looked at the MLP policy and the application of that MLP policy. We're

taking external advice on that but looking at the application of our MLP

policy looks like we were charging MLP where we didn't need to so we've advised

that MLP so you're seeing a saving come through from the change in the

application and our policy.

Thank you for that. Yes,

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:57:49

that's a lot. Thank you also very good.

Well, well done.

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:57:53

That's that's a nice bit of good news.

And then on the so the unfavourable

variances on the housing benefits rebates.

We discussed that quite a bit in the last

year and I sort of understand that that's

so that's really difficult and there's

not a huge amount we can do to stop that from.

From hitting us as as I as I understand

and there's an extent to which we've had to take that on our chin.

I guess my question is when we're sort of projecting things forward,

is this an area where we should be starting off with more conservative figures

and hopefully seeing some upside rather than kind of getting whacked

with unfavourable variances during the year?

So, through you, Chair.

So thank you very much.

Mr Alan Mitchell - 0:58:41

So in terms of this one, there is a strategy.

As you know if we put tummies into our own property we get full resource for income back

If it's in third classes we don't so there's a strategy that's in place in order to try and move as much of residents into our accommodation as possible

What we're seeing in the current position is that we're seeing this trend continue

So what we're looking to do is identify how that strategy is coming into play, how it's affecting the forecast that we currently have got, and then what changes we need to make in order to make that strategy more effective in order to try and manage this position.

But we are seeing the number of tenants increase, so the pressure is increasing.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 0:59:33

Yes, Councillor Martin, more questions?

Cllr Alan Martin - 0:59:39

Yes, thank you. Just one more. So then on page 117, so under Princess Parade, we say

Princess Parade budget to be used for funding Princess Parade capitalisation. I just didn't

understand what that meant so I wondered if you could just give me a bit more detail.

Mr Alan Mitchell - 1:00:01

Yeah, through you Chair, so thank you. So what it is is that as part of the capital

scheme we have capitalised x amount of cost for printed parade as we look to make a final

decision on that we will look to fund how to be charged back to revenue and we will

look to fund that through that reserves.

Go ahead council Martin.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:00:24

Cllr Alan Martin - 1:00:27

Is that reserve big enough to cover the cost of that?

Mr Alan Mitchell - 1:00:31

I want to go back to the car parking.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:00:36

I can imagine some of our residents at home who might be watching this will be thinking

mmm, so we're charged all that money and they're making this bumper profit.

I wonder what lessons does that hold for future parking tariff strategy and enforcement levels

and how are the additional funds raised going to be used for the benefit of residents?

What do you plan to do with that?

Thank you, Chair.

FHDC Officer - 1:01:09

Like I said, we've lumped the on and off street parking together.

The bulk of the surplus is actually off street,

which we've put into a reserve to receive, used to fund any car parking cost,

and this is as bad as it is with KCC.

Thank you.

Did you want to add something?

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:01:31

Mr Alan Mitchell - 1:01:34

I think all I would say is that as part of the budget process we will be reviewing all

fees and charges as well as our budget cap and our budget needs.

So as part of that as we look at car parking we will identify whether or not it is sufficient,

whether or not it needs to be increased and members will be brought through our process

as part of our decision making to understand whether or not if we need to increase fees

what they're buying and what the overall strategy is but we'll look at that each year on a year

by year basis.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:02:01

Any other questions?

Yes Councillor.

Thank you Chair.

Quickly on to Appendix C page 114.

Cllr John Wing - 1:02:08

A local government regeneration.

Can you explain what that money is for please?

Did you mean local government reorganisation?

Mr Alan Mitchell - 1:02:20

Yes, Appendix C, page 114, it's about local government regeneration basically.

I think it means local government reorganisation.

So basically as part of the draught out transition there is a faithful variance.

As we're going into local government reorganisation, we know that there are costs, we know that

government aren't going to fund those costs, so what we're trying to do is be prudent,

put aside resource so we can fund that process.

You see that all districts throughout Kent are actually doing the same process as well.

So further question on that. Do you have an idea of what might be involved in regards to the use of that money?

Do you have a plan or is it just sort of like a contingency fund?

So obviously we've got the deadline in the vendor in terms of our business case.

As we go through that work with our studio partner, we will try to identify what sort of costs we will incur as we go through that process.

We're also talking to other districts of councils that have been through the process to try

and get an understanding of the sort of costs that they've incurred.

And from that we could be able to start to build up a case but it's seeing prudent to

start putting money to the side that haven't gone out in cases that's going to cost XYZ

but it's more a case that I know I'm going to need money for that so therefore I can

afford to put X amount in and just build it up and as we get more of the picture forms

then there will be an actual case that says,

this is the amount we're putting aside to meet these various costs,

and therefore this is the amount we're going to reserve,

and that's how we're going to meet that cost.

Thank you for that.

So obviously LGR is going to be a major thing,

running through everything that we do in the Council

for the next year or two, three,

or however long it's going to take to go through.

So is this something that once you've done your research,

start identifying some of the areas that focus areas that the money will go towards.

Is this something that's going to come back to this panel so we can actually have a look

at how the money is being used because it's a considerable amount of money.

Thank you, Chair.

So yeah, absolutely.

Mr Alan Mitchell - 1:04:42

So as part of the ongoing revenue monitoring position, we will report back on terms of

spend and what we're of course re -encoring.

Also with Councillor McOverell as well,

as the portfolio holder for LGR,

he'd be engaged in that process as well.

So you should have sight of that.

I do have an apology actually.

I meant to talk to you about reserve and I didn't,

so I might have such, so I apologise.

But yeah, so absolutely,

as part of this ongoing revenue process,

and I probably feel that LGR

can become its own separate entity in that sense,

that we will come back and report the progress of that.

Yes, and I wonder if, I don't know if we have the mechanism within this meeting to make

that decision, but if it's possible for it to be a sort of standing agenda item for this

meeting and perhaps overview and scrutiny in general, because it will be something which

be a repeating theme throughout the year and the years coming.

Mr Alan Mitchell - 1:05:47

So it may be a bit premature because obviously until we get to that November position we

don't know, it's a little bit uncertain at the moment and obviously depending on whether

or not it's three, four, count unit trees, one, two, we don't know what the model is

going to be going forward.

So I definitely think in future there's something that we can consider bringing back.

I think it might be a little premature at this moment in time.

Thank you. Any other questions? Yes, Councillor Tom.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 1:06:14

Thank you, Chair. Just one comment first.

Having the purple headings makes it difficult to read online,

on screen, actually, some of these things.

Particularly when you've got the sun shining.

Purple makes it quite difficult.

That aside, Appendix D, the Budget Carry Forward,

Presumably each of these have been requested by the department managers in

terms of meeting a business objective which are also going to be carrying

forward into the new financial year. Is that correct?

Mr Alan Mitchell - 1:06:50

So firstly thank you for your point on the green purple headings were resolved

so that they would disappear so apologies for that. But in terms of the

carry for request yes you're absolutely right all the chief officers can put in

requests all these requests are reviewed by CLT as well as the council operators are used

to review all these as well but they are to fund specific things or if there's an income

that we've received that have been carried forward that everything on this should be

to fund Saint Pacific in next year.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:07:24

Okay so it looks like we're ready so the recommendation for members is to receive a note report C2511

Can I have a proposal please?

Council Martin a seconder.

Council Wing and a show of hands.

OK, thank you.

So item six general fund capital

programme provisional out turn 2425,

6 General Fund Capital Programme Provisional Outturn 2024/25

and that's going to be presented

by Officer Jonathan Smith.

Jonathan Smith - 1:07:54

Thank you, share leaving members and

so the general fund capital report

here presents the general fund capital

out turn as against the budget from the approved medium -term capital programme, the MTCP.

The budget for 2024 -25 was just under 17 .1 million.

Overall, there's an underspend of 3 .5 million.

The underspends can be categorised into buckets, which are set out in Appendix 2 to the report.

The report itself discusses the main reasons for the variances at Sections 2 .1 to 2 .5.

Just some things to highlight.

In total, there is a total of £4 .4 million which has been re -profiled, of which, for

example, £2 .6 million relates to the folks in a brighter future, either the Levelling

Up project.

There is an overspend of £1 .4 million as a bucket, however, the majority of that relates

to capitalised interest at Otipool.

So, with the loans and the increased amount of loans for the Otipool project, and also

just increased interest costs.

This basically, as we did last year, we are capitalising that interest in the loans, removing

it from the general fund revenue budget and placing it on the capital budget.

There's also approximately £500 ,000 worth of underspends.

Of those underspends, 300 ,000 relates to the UK Shared Prosperity Fund and also the rural

England Prosperity Fund, but those underspends have been reallocated within the capital programme

to fund other schemes.

The only other point to highlight is the expenditure

financed by borrowing which amounts to 8 million.

It's paragraph 3 .1.

And I think unless there are any questions, I'll be happy to take any questions on the

report.

Thank you.

Councillor Thomas.

Yeah, thank you, Chair.

Again, an excellent report.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 1:09:46

It's very clear where we are, what we're doing,

and where we're proposing to go.

So thank you very much, I appreciate that.

Just in terms of the underspend that you identified in 2 .2,

associated with Focused and Brighter Future Project.

So for that particular project,

the fact that that's nearly 3 .5 million pounds of underspend,

we haven't delivered what we should have done

within the defined period.

costs are likely to increase in the period going forward.

Does that mean we're going to be delivering less?

Or that for us to deliver the same amount,

we might have to supplement that at some time in the future?

Thank you.

Thank you, Asma.

In terms of the spend,

Jonathan Smith - 1:10:33

I believe there was a delay in starting some of the work

and that's caused the re -profiling, the carry -forward.

Obviously a project this size,

it was a county council are doing

a large amount of the work.

It was just ensuring we had the

right sort of provisions in place

in terms of operationally to

actually engage with that work.

So I believe that's the reason for

the movement in terms of the costs.

I believe that the budget is set

for levelling up in the amount.

It's more a case of it was just the

timing of engaging with those works

on site and ensuring the relevant

sort of traffic provisions were in place.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 1:11:11

So, just on that, there will be some contingency associated with that.

So, presumably to deliver the same amount you'll be eating

is the contingency within there.

Is that likely to impact anything with regard to the deliverability of the project?

That's what I'm trying to understand, really. Thank you.

Jonathan Smith - 1:11:29

As I understand, there shouldn't be any impact in terms of deliverability.

This is merely a timing issue.

I'm happy to take it back to the project team and ask for further details.

but as I understand it, this is just a case of timing of the programme,

obviously of being a large -scale programme

and ensuring that the work is started at a specific time.

It just obviously didn't quite get to start

at the time it was initially intended.

However, I do believe it's due to complete next year at some stage.

Councillor Thomas.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:12:03

Yeah, thank you, Chair.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 1:12:04

Just in Appendix 2 with the variance analysis,

reprofiling accounts for about £4 .5 million.

We've got the overspends.

I think you've already identified the fact that that was an octupel -related issue, which is fine.

Then you've got the underspends, the 447 there.

So, again, each of those in terms of carrying that work forward has been signed on to by

the relevant managers, so we know we're going to be able to deliver that in a future year

having moved that work on in some way.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Councillor.

Jonathan Smith - 1:12:48

Yes, in essence, any reprofiling that's happened will be a case of, again, timing issue cutting

over the 31st of March position and it's merely a case of ensuring that the work obviously

is continuing in each of these areas.

It's just about ensuring that the budget is not lost, it's rolled forward to cover obviously

continued work that's ongoing.

Let's go ahead, Councillor.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:13:15

Thank you, Chair.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 1:13:16

Just so I understand, just in terms of how managers are allowed to move,

do they have to then demonstrate that they're able to resource that

in the coming year as well, if you're moving money from one year to the next?

Or does it push something else off the edge of the table at some future date?

Thank you.

Mr Alan Mitchell - 1:13:44

So I think it's different from the three sort of carry forward but in terms of a lot of these ones what we would do is ask for them to demonstrate why it's lit so we have an understanding of what the reason for this carry before being created is.

then also there would be discussions around timing of it

and get that understanding that we are not just carrying

budget forward for the sake of it, it can be delivered

and if there is any other impact on that, then that part of that conversation

is getting an understanding of the holistic part of it

rather than just go towards budget but actually what's the impact of it

that whole discussion is centred around that basically.

Yes, Councillor Martin.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:14:28

Thank you, Chair.

I've got two questions.

Cllr Alan Martin - 1:14:33

First of all, on the reprofiling, it always surprises me quite how much reprofiling is

going on.

It's always a big amount and it's across all of our big projects.

Councillors who've been around longer than I have tell me that that's often the case,

but it still surprises me quite how much is reprofiled each year.

The first question that comes to mind is are we systemically under delivering on our projects

and I guess that question isn't one for this meeting in all of those big projects are scrutinised

in the main overview and scrutiny committee so maybe we should pick that up there but

I would be interested in your perspective I guess on whether we're going through an

unusual period of re profiling or whether the amounts of

re profiling that I've seen over the last couple of years is

relatively normal for a council and linked to that I guess is

there anything we can do to sharpen up the projection of the

capital spend I know there's not very much you can do in the

finance team if a project gets delayed and that will happen

within a year but is there anything we can do to reduce some of that noise?

Thank you, Chancellor.

Jonathan Smith - 1:16:03

I think there's obviously a difficulty in terms of when setting a budget for a particular

year, particularly on a big capital project, there's always a difficulty in ensuring that

things will all work entirely to time, particularly on some of the big projects, for example the

folks in the Bryce future as a good example.

I think it's that difficulty at the beginning of the year when sort of January time

Just saying how will we spend over the next year will there be any?

Sort of things that we do encounter so there is that level of difficulty and just ensuring that you're placing

Your budget accordingly and setting a budget accordingly sometimes things can just can

Reprofile because they've slipped by even for example a month for example if you have a budget of a certain amount

and actually it doesn't quite complete within the year.

Sometimes you have to obviously then carry forward.

And it may then complete in the April of the next financial

year, but in which case you might have a big carry forward.

But it does obviously depend on each individual project.

And obviously, as I said, there is a difficulty

in terms of the ability to estimate.

Obviously, we can take something back to service managers.

But of course, we do do capital monitoring throughout the year

as well.

So part of this committee will obviously

receive the quarterly monitoring reports.

Just like we do on the revenue budget,

we do the same on capital budget.

And that's brought forward.

Those questions can obviously be asked at those times

on the specific projects.

Obviously, what we're presenting here

is just the final out -turned position

for the financial year that's gone past.

But of course, there's sometimes that difficulty

about, certainly on the bigger projects, what will actually

be able to be spent specifically within that cutoff period,

because we work effectively to that 31st of March point.

Go ahead Councillor.

Thank you chair.

Yeah, so thank you for that, yeah that's helpful.

Cllr Alan Martin - 1:17:54

And then, so relating to the Otterpool

1 .44 million capitalised interest payment.

In the comment we say,

it is expected that Homes England will reimburse us.

I don't know whether it's just how it's been worded,

but it sounded like there was an element of doubt about that.

So is there?

I think that's a wording point.

Jonathan Smith - 1:18:26

Obviously we have a collaboration agreement with Homes England

and part of that, there is reimbursement for some of the funding

that we're doing on the work out

to multiple at present and it's

in line with that agreement.

We will receive reimbursement for

some of the historic costs that

have been taken out, taken place.

And do we know?

So is that in line with the 5050?

Cllr Alan Martin - 1:18:51

Or do we not yet know how much

will be reimbursed for that?

Or do we have the? Clarity.

I will have to take that one specifically

back at question back and I can

Jonathan Smith - 1:19:02

probably come back to you on that.

Councillor Wing.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:19:10

Thank you. Quickly moving on to appendix A number 31.

Cllr John Wing - 1:19:14

It's talking about Prince's Parade Leisure Centre and Podgea Paws.

Can you tell me a little bit more about what that money's for,

what it's going to use for, whatever?

Yes, at paragraph, thank you, Councillor.

Jonathan Smith - 1:19:29

At paragraph, I believe, 2 .3 of the report,

we deal with that specific point.

Essentially, in 24, 25, there were obviously

a number of activities that took place

in terms of hoarding clearance,

rubbish clearance, making safe.

That's the point about this spend

and the carry -forward is on making safe.

Another point, well, got 39 out of 40

about coastal protection.

Cllr John Wing - 1:19:58

I see there is a slight overspend in the great stone work in the dunes

and the other one in the beach management is 2020 to 2025.

I take from that, that grant is now ending.

If it's a five year thing, is it?

And obviously, as well as the sea level is a thing,

I take it that the council are aware of this

and in the future, grants will be increased to cover additional work

which will be needed over the winter period basically.

Jonathan Smith - 1:20:36

As I understand it, there will be a new scheme started for the next five -year period,

particularly on the co -protection point.

Excellent, thank you. Any other questions?

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:20:50

Okay, so the recommendation for members is to receive a note report C2512.

Can I have a proposer, please?

Councillor Thomas, a seconder?

Councillor Martin, and a vote by show of hands.

Thank you very much.

You can go next time, Councillor Wingate.

7 HRA Revenue and Capital Provisional Outturn 2024-25

Okay, and then our last item, HRA and Capital Provisional Out -term, 2024 to 25, and it will

be presented again by Officer Jonathan Smith.

Thank you, Chair.

Jonathan Smith - 1:21:27

So the HRA report, the Housing Revenue Report, presents both the provisional revenue and

capital positions for 2024 -25.

It's helpful to take you through the capital first before going through revenue, because

The biggest driver in most years for movements on the revenue budget is in fact the capital

programme and the work that we're performing on the capital programme.

The capital programme is an underspend of approximately 7 .2 million at a total of 9 .3

million rather than the budgeted 16 .5 million.

There are good reasons for this, which are set out at section 2 .2 of the report.

The single biggest item is a re -profile 4 .8 million relating to new builds.

This essentially rates to new builds which are completed just after year end, and therefore

we needed to carry forward the near five million pound budget forwards, and it will be spent

this year and is already being spent at the moment.

There are some other big movements, for example the telecare digital upgrade, which experienced

some technical issues that have now been resolved, resulting in a delayed start, as well as movements

on the decarbonisation programme.

The team have reached a passive for work that could be undertaken, and so therefore couldn't

spend all the budget on that particular item.

Mostly it's re -profiling work for the various reasons set out

in section 2 .2 of this report.

I would draw your attention to paragraph 2 .9 of the report

in that the majority of carry -forwards

relate to either specific projects, for example,

they've mentioned telecare or decarbonization or new builds.

Taking these specific items aside,

the routine planned maintenance has limited carry -forwards

slippage across the whole HRA capital programme

against their individual budget lines,

with a high level of capital work being completed as planned.

Given the decrease in the capital spend,

and i .e. the underspend I've mentioned,

this has changed the financing side of the budget.

We've not financed any capital work

with revenue contribution to capital outlay,

i .e. the revenue contribution budget line.

This will automatically, in turn,

create a £3 million underspend on the revenue budget,

which you'll note from the revenue budget report.

Also, there is just under £5 million of loan

will also be carried forward to fund the new bills which

completed early in 2526.

And then obviously that then compiled most of the underspend.

Turning to the revenue out -turn and how the capital programme

would impact on the revenue.

First, in terms of the service expenditure,

I'll deal with that first.

Income is largely in line with budget.

However, expenditure is down by $750 ,000.

And a large proportion of this relates

to both prepared maintenance, bad debt provision, supervision

and management recharge and depreciation.

So there's an increase in interest payable,

but mostly due to higher interest rates.

For pensions, members should need

to take both the interest cost and the share of the reserve

movement into account.

Once they're presented to split on the budget lines,

the net overspend is in fact a 16K overspend on a £200 ,000 budget when taking the two

lines together. And taking the underspend in the revenue expenditure budget in terms

of the RCCO that I mentioned before, the revenue contribution to capital, that gives the underspend

of 4 .3 million. Therefore, rather than a net decrease in the HOA reserves of 1 million

on the total revenue budget, there has in fact been an increase of 3 .3 million pounds

to the HRA's general reserve.

I'm happy to take any questions.

Councillor Thomas.

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:25:11

Thank you for that.

Cllr Paul Thomas - 1:25:13

There's a lot of detail in here

in terms of identifying variants

and then putting the individual contributor to that

so we can understand it.

So thank you very much for that.

There is one thing I'd like to ask in terms of the,

so I understand New Build's capital slippage.

You mentioned that.

That's 4 .8 million pounds.

One of the things that under revenue,

we've got an in appendix three carry forward requests.

And those carry forward requests, 289 ,000 pounds.

When you have a look at those,

114 ,000 of those is planned maintenance on Cubitt House.

And that also features in the capital elements as well.

There are four elements in the capital part

which link to Cubitt House.

But we've said no mention in the previous quarters

about slippage with delivery of that project.

So it seems we've come into quarter four

and then all of a sudden we want to move things forward

into the next year.

I just wondered if there's an explanation for that.

It's not covered specifically in the report, I'm afraid.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Councillor.

Jonathan Smith - 1:26:31

As I understand it, and I can always go back

to the housing team further for more detail,

there was an emergency level of work

that needed to be performed that was identified,

but I can speak to the housing team

and get some further information for you post -meeting.

Any other questions?

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:26:50

Okay, so the recommendation for members is to receive a note report C2513. Can I have

a proposer please? Councillor Wing, a seconder, Councillor Martin and a vote with a show of

Cllr Abena Akuffo-Kelly - 1:27:09

hands. Okay, that's the last item on the agenda. Thank you very much for attending this meeting.

The meeting is now closed.

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Finance and Performance Scrutiny Sub-Committee - Tuesday 1 July 2025, 6:00pm - Slides Tab - Folkestone & Hythe webcasting